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  #11  
Old 11-16-2011
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
Andy
This could discourage people who find their pace is much slower. There are indeed many people in younger age groups - at least those swimming at a fairly high competitive level -- who can swim 25km at a pace of 1:25 per 100m, but there are almost none in 'senior' age groups who can maintain that pace for even 1.5km. At least if by 'senior' you mean 40+
Apologies for overexagerating, just trying to express that form and efficiency can keep you fast whatever your age so don't accept a low 'ok plateau'. Rather, see fast swimming as a technical puzzle to be solved rather than a test of physical endurance? You can solve a puzzle at any age. It was meant to be encouraging.

It is at least the reason why I have gone to the pool 7 times a week for the last 8 months, where other fitness regimes have petered out after 2-3 months of 2-3 times a week.
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  #12  
Old 11-16-2011
rbs24h rbs24h is offline
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Originally Posted by tpamperin View Post
Maybe it's best to concentrate first on increasing SL until you are deep into your efficient range (which for my height, I think, is 12-16 SPL). That way when TT work begins, you have more room to trade SL for speed. To do that, I highly recommend sets like the one I described above. Anyone have thoughts on that?
Hey Tom,

Thanks a lot. I will give that set a try. Warm up? Main Set? I guess a repeat of that set would be a decent main set. I think I will play around with TT today too. Theoretically, that decrease-increase tempo set (count strokes for 25's at 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 etc..) is to help SPL, no? Finding a good starting Tempo for me may be the challenge today. Thanks again

Paul
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  #13  
Old 11-16-2011
ian mac ian mac is offline
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To RBS: I have used Tom's set and repeated it 4 times, set 1 doing the lowest possible SPL I can manage, set 2 increasing my SPL by 1, set 3 I use the TT at a SR .04 above my lactic threshold and set 4 using a TT set the SR at threshold.
I will usually watch my 50m times on set 4, and then do a main set of 10 x 50m @1 min descending the pace to 2 sec below my threshold pace for the final 2 50's of the set. In order to keep the adaptation process going, it is important to occasionally swim faster than your goal/threshold pace for your goal distance.

to Andy: fast swimming is BOTH a technical puzzle and a test of physical endurance- by constantly adapting your threshold pace, you will get into better aerobic condition. As a 50+ masters swimmer, I would caution about swimming too hard if you are swimming every day. Make sure that you only "push the envelope" 2-3 times weekly, while enjoying the mindful development of beautiful technique the rest of the week.
Ian
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  #14  
Old 11-17-2011
tpamperin tpamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by ian mac View Post
As a 50+ masters swimmer, I would caution about swimming too hard if you are swimming every day. Make sure that you only "push the envelope" 2-3 times weekly, while enjoying the mindful development of beautiful technique the rest of the week.
Ian
Ian,

thanks; you've got great ideas for how to approach practice, and I'm stealing them all. This one is especially important--I've just started working toward speed this week and I am tired--I sure can't practice every session like I have these last few (I'm 40).

Tom
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  #15  
Old 11-17-2011
tpamperin tpamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
It is at least the reason why I have gone to the pool 7 times a week for the last 8 months, where other fitness regimes have petered out after 2-3 months of 2-3 times a week.
I agree 100%--TI is utterly addictive and completely engaging.

Tom
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  #16  
Old 11-17-2011
tpamperin tpamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by rbs24h View Post
Hey Tom,

Thanks a lot. I will give that set a try. Warm up? Main Set?
Paul,

let me know how it goes. As for the warm up/main set question, I've been doing about 200-500 yds in fistgloves (25-yd repeats) beforehand, nice and easy. That made it easier for me to get a nice low SPL on my gloveless 25's.

It took quite a while before I could hold my best count through the whole 500-yd set, but I always wanted to start it at my absolute best for those 25's. And I didn't use a TT at first--just swam as slow as I had to and really pushed for low SPL.

Tom
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  #17  
Old 11-17-2011
rbs24h rbs24h is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpamperin View Post
Maybe it's best to concentrate first on increasing SL until you are deep into your efficient range (which for my height, I think, is 12-16 SPL). That way when TT work begins, you have more room to trade SL for speed. To do that, I highly recommend sets like the one I described above. Anyone have thoughts on that?

Tom
So I started at 1.4 for 25 yds.
1.4 16
1.5 16
1.6 15
1.7 14
1.8 13
1.9 13
2.0 12
2.0 12
1.9 12
1.8 13
1.7 13
1.6 14
1.5 15
1.4 15
So the more I work with TT, the more I get it. There were times that I kind of felt all over the place, mostly at faster tempos. Slower tempos were very relaxing to do, though my recovery arm was many times cocked and ready to slice...waiting for the beep. I think my discovery is that by doing drills like this or the 25/50/75/100 100/75/50/25 and trying to keep the same SPL, I can do both swim for enjoyment and "flow" while assuming that each of these sets:1) Gets me in the water another session
2) Allows me to use these drills to improve my swimming in each session.
3) Convinces me that over time, practices like these will ultimately make me faster through improvements in balance/form (less drag)/relaxation /technique. Key part of this is "over time". And good news is that I am enjoying TI so much, that it is not urgent that I get fast in the next two months. But I can realistically see 10 seconds improvement in 100 splits over a year. I'm cool with that. I couldn't finish 2 laps 6 months ago without standing, or rolling over to my back in a Triathlon race swim.

Thanks Tom, (and Terry too) please keep posting. and Good Luck.

Paul Holcomb
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  #18  
Old 11-17-2011
terry terry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ian mac View Post
6. @1:35 - no TT, avg. work 2 strokes into and 3 strokes out of each turn, then look for "easy speed" - avg. time 1:15
The smart - and thoroughly unusual --aspect of what Ian and Andy are doing in their training is their focus on seeking the easiest way to accomplish a particular task - rather than blindly working 'harder' which is the norm, and mainly leads to practicing struggle.

When using a TT it becomes almost instinctive to focus on finding leisure and relaxation during the interval between beeps, particularly as you shrink that interval.
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  #19  
Old 11-17-2011
terry terry is offline
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Originally Posted by rbs24h View Post
by doing drills like this and trying to keep the same SPL, I can both swim for enjoyment and "flow" while assuming that each of these sets:1) Gets me in the water another session
2) Allows me to use these drills to improve my swimming in each session.
3) Convinces me that over time, practices like these will ultimately make me faster through improvements in balance/form (less drag)/relaxation /technique. Key part of this is "over time". And good news is that I am enjoying TI so much, that it is not urgent that I get fast in the next two months.
Bingo!

I have noted countless times that I design sets like these initially because they hardwire my brain for a pattern that is proven to enhance success in racing -- i.e. the capacity to minimize loss of efficiency (Stroke Length) while increasing Tempo. This neural capacity correlates more strongly with high performance at elite levels than any physiological marker (i.e. VO2max, etc.)

But the far more compelling reason I keep doing them isn't the possibility I might have a great race in 2 or 4 or 6 months, but the fact that sets like this produce a massively enjoyable Flow state TODAY - and every day.

Intrinsic motivation from the quality of your daily experience is the most important effect to produce in practice. The rest will take care of itself.

I watch other people training - Masters teams and people training solo - and ask myself how they can bring themselves to keep doing generic, unfocused exercise day after day.
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  #20  
Old 11-17-2011
tpamperin tpamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbs24h View Post
There were times that I kind of felt all over the place, mostly at faster tempos. Slower tempos were very relaxing to do, though my recovery arm was many times cocked and ready to slice...waiting for the beep.
Paul,

I know exactly what you mean about feeling "all over the place" at first, but I'm doing better with each TT practice--actually my progress toward being comfortable at new tempos has been surprisingly quick.

As for the slower repeats, what you describe above is exactly what happened to me. I adjusted by REALLY slowing down my recovery but making sure the motion never stops, so at slower tempos it feels like super slow motion. I've been paying a lot of attention to recovering as slowly as I can so there's no dead spot in the stroke where I have to pause. That slow recovery also really encourages me to extend my lead arm even further and glide for a longer time, really resisting starting the catch too soon.

Tom
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