Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 08-19-2018
Tom65 Tom65 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 29
Tom65
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoiscathy View Post
Good for you. I can't sprint to savd my life. I have non-existent catch and I feel real time as I slip. But even if I had good catch I couldn't recover my arms fast enough for sprinting. I feel tremendous tension in my shoulders. Somrtimes so much it almost hurts.
Lucky enough to still have a fair range in my shoulders, compressed nerve C6 to C7 aside.

My shoulders and upper arms hurt a little from about the 150 through to about 300 metres then they settle.

With all due respect to the technicalities of proper swimming, catch to me is keeping the palm facing the wall behind and using as much forearm as possible, from there it's trying to maintain the speed from the push off.

I like to think I've got a good push off, it's one of those crutches you develop to get to the other end before you've attained some swim fitness.

I don't think I'll ever consider swimming to be easy or ever feel truly comfortable doing it but it's been worth the effort.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 08-20-2018
liolio
 
Posts: n/a
Default

something that works for me in any stroke is to have my arm relatively relaxed throughout extension only puting "some" muscle at the very end of the movement.
I consciously rotate my humerus externally which helps me further protracting my scapula and elevating one side of the rib cage (internal rotatio got me to bind my spine an imho is a healthy spot to start the motion which further internally rotate the arm). Once I'm "here" I've pretty much nowhere to o but to "fall' into the catch.
the release of tension in the overall shoulder is all the strength I need for the catch.


As for motivation, I believe that it is part of the learning to get it and lose it.
It happens to me all the time, I start to think I'm doing right then discover a better way or a mistake of some sort. I correct it or try and all of the suden my stroke breaks. Soon after I usually avoid speeding to if not consolidate (more on that later) but erase or replace the old (early) habit.
I tink it is good news, I do not want my swim to consolidate too much while it is still plagued by glaring issue. It is seems you are in a pretty flexible spot.
Some people are pretty consistant, ad they consolidate a stroke fast and find it extremely hard to alter. They are used to do volume and given speed, significant changes are almost out of the windows. When I still feel a little down, I look at some people in a "relaxed" club that pretty much make no sensible progres and to me it seems they are swimming significant slower than their level of fitness allows (dam I wish I were that fit, balanced, etc.).

Many will disagree but I would advice to pass as much as possible on tools, especially fins. Learning as its up and down at least wrt the observable short or mid term results, if you like what you are doing keep pushing through, swimming as many sides which will complement whatever you do in freestyle.
Fins and what not, might be useful if used properly. What I see at the pool is pretty a hack and a way to deal with delayed satisfaction. I especially do not believe in the slightest that it helps finding out to kick... in the slightest...
The foot actions are critical. Foot flexion and extension, properly lead by the big toe hence resulting by the use of the proper cinetic (muscles). It is not the case for lots of people (mostly our fucked up shoes shapes). I noticed that lots of good swimmers that migh have practice like forever have wide and healthy foot. The foot actions result in the action of muscles mostly extrinsic yet how cann you feel it with your feet encased in the pretty unflexible toe box of fins?


As for me during my last swim I could not really get into freestyle no matter it felt great in my previous swim. I did not feel like push through it or force it. I spent most of my time doing backstroke and sometime doing "grueling" core training in breaststroke. My streamline is OK but not healthy. My spine is rotated. I work to keep to resisting rotation when I extended forward, during the leg recovery as well as during the kick. There are various muscles, with different strength none of which are bother by my spine position not that willing to pay attention to it either. I stick to it. Breaststroke is my best stroke though at the moment I'm slighty slower than I used to. I don't want to do the same mistakes, detrimetal to my health, that I did unknowingly before, I'm also sure that when I find a proper line I will faster. It keeps me going.

Anyway, have a good one you guys, I would back be in the water soon :)
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 08-20-2018
CoachStuartMcDougal's Avatar
CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,353
CoachStuartMcDougal
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoiscathy View Post
Good for you. I can't sprint to savd my life. I have non-existent catch and I feel real time as I slip. But even if I had good catch I couldn't recover my arms fast enough for sprinting. I feel tremendous tension in my shoulders. Somrtimes so much it almost hurts.
Hi Cathy,

Tension in the shoulders is one of the biggest obstacles to overcome, far more then tension in the neck - but both are related. Recruiting the shoulder is primal, a response to imbalance. Soft, relaxed shoulders are fluid and move freely; tight tense shoulders are rigid, not fluid or free. Terry used to say “swim with [the feeling of] light shoulders” an excellent focus. Look at any of his videos, notice how soft and “light” his shoulders are: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4

To feel what a tense vs soft/light shoulder is like, in Superman (and Skate) drill, extend arms forward using shoulders, bring the shoulders to the ears - feel the discomfort and also become aware of the tension in the neck and chest too. Most will sink of few inches with tension. Then with tension, release the shoulders, allow the shoulder to sit back in its socket - feel the sudden comfort *and* stability (body rises to surface) with relaxed shoulders.

Find out what is causing your imbalance that is recruiting the shoulders to solve unconsciously, as well as use the focal point, “swim with light shoulders”. This will take time, be patient with the process.

Stu
MindBodyAndSWIM.com

Last edited by CoachStuartMcDougal : 08-20-2018 at 05:35 PM. Reason: Added Terry video
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 08-22-2018
daveblt daveblt is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 820
daveblt
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Cathy,

Tension in the shoulders is one of the biggest obstacles to overcome, far more then tension in the neck - but both are related. Recruiting the shoulder is primal, a response to imbalance. Soft, relaxed shoulders are fluid and move freely; tight tense shoulders are rigid, not fluid or free. Terry used to say “swim with [the feeling of] light shoulders” an excellent focus. Look at any of his videos, notice how soft and “light” his shoulders are: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4

To feel what a tense vs soft/light shoulder is like, in Superman (and Skate) drill, extend arms forward using shoulders, bring the shoulders to the ears - feel the discomfort and also become aware of the tension in the neck and chest too. Most will sink of few inches with tension. Then with tension, release the shoulders, allow the shoulder to sit back in its socket - feel the sudden comfort *and* stability (body rises to surface) with relaxed shoulders.

Find out what is causing your imbalance that is recruiting the shoulders to solve unconsciously, as well as use the focal point, “swim with light shoulders”. This will take time, be patient with the process.

Stu
MindBodyAndSWIM.com




Like I've mentioned before, a pinky entry that is rotated at least just slightly down along with a spear to the far wall that is not fully locked out and with a feeling that you are extending from the shoulder and not the hand seems to help keep tension from the shoulders. A pinky down entry and relaxed but toned arm helps to keep you from balancing off the palm of your hand which turns your arm in to a long stiff lever resulting in late catch and breath timing .

Dave
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 08-26-2018
whoiscathy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Stuart

Thank you Coach, I'll try the things you say.

However, I'm going through some very rough times and all that stress is physically accumulated in my upper back and shoulders. I'm not really able to relax them even at the breakfast table. I think that's what can be seen on my swimming as well.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 08-26-2018
CoachStuartMcDougal's Avatar
CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,353
CoachStuartMcDougal
Default

Hi Cathy,

Sorry to hear about having a rough time as that can certainly increase tension in shoulders, neck and chest. When you get to the pool, try to shut off the outside world and all of its problems and focus on only you, even if for 30 mins. My masters runs in the eves, it can take anywhere from 15-30mins before swimmers can shut off the day's stresses and get into their zone. I can always tell when a swimmer had a really tough day, they come out almost attacking the water. I often will pull them aside, chat with them briefly about what I'm noticing, help get their head into the game - and shortly after they are back in their zone swimming *with* the water in their "zen zone" :-)

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 08-27-2018
bx bx is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bournemouth, UK
Posts: 422
bx
Default

Two thoughts.

1.
During the course of a swim, my freestyle starts off a bit stiff, then gets smoother, then I might hit a super good patch with some great new feeling in whole body connection or catch etc. Then a few minutes later, it fades away.
The body has its own natural intelligence. I like to think the trick is to pay attention to when you get the brief good feeling, don't overanalyse it, and gently try to work back to getting that feeling again.


2.
When my catch is a bit weak and useless, I can swim further and get less out of breath, so it's nice and relaxing.
When my body works out how to get a firmer catch, it takes more energy, and I get puffed out earlier, as my fitness gradually improves.
So, weak catch or firm catch is no problem, it just means my swim is different at that time.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 09-04-2018
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

I, too had a love-hate relationship. I hated something about it, now looking back I realize it was insecurity, it was hating my incompetence and being somewhat discouraged by it, and hating the cold water, and thus the first rush of cold as you got in and pushed off. So accepting any excuse not to go in -- too many people in lane, too cold etc. But doggedly showing up at the pool because of very deeply felt desire to keep improving.

But something has changed. I just completed my first IronMan race 2 weeks ago at Mont Tremblant and was really pumped by it. My 3.8k swim was 1:45, including quite a long walk up the beach and up some stairs, better than 2:00 a year ago, so not speedy by any means, but still finishing the swim in good shape, and a solid improvement from last year's try.

I returned to the pool because I still recognized that I still had a long further improvement ahead of me. I have kept on running from home to the pool as part of my training routine, and some days I've even run fast, and end up needing to do a short recovery. But I notice now I'm not thrown off as much when there's lots of people in my lane, and I now hardly dread the initial cold water immersion. And I'm more focussed on the moment, the quality of the stroke, rather than just getting to the end of each length and to the end of the number of laps and the end of the session. In other words I'm starting to enjoy more the moment rather than the hard won satisfaction of getting through something that might be mildly unpleasant, or at least something that was tinged with some avoidance on my part. It's an important distinction, and was not entirely clear-cut before, at the time, at least not until I've got past the worst of it now.

Funny, I would have said I accepted my incompetence and was enjoying working at improving, and it would have been true at some level. But I definitely am less inhibited now, and getting into the water is much easier now. It helps that my self imposed mantra is "relax", and "enjoy", and "feel satisfied" rather than "improve".

Cathy, ease up on yourself! It's amazing how giving yourself permission to enjoy the process, enjoy the moment, etc., can actually change how you feel, even if you are a Type A like me.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 09-09-2018
liolio
 
Posts: n/a
Default

global update.

I feel good about my swiming at the moment.
My freestyle is feeling much better, I should time myself one of this day on a 100m (lazyness and and actually a little sacre about what the results would be). I'm correcting my line and I've raised the efficiency of my under water arm movements (the catch was ok, too strong a pull, weak push to a more properly accelerated movement more efficient).

My backstroke has improved too. My arms throughout the pull and the push are staig closer to my core. Here too I've improved the push part of the motion. it's not more demanding actually I've been able to accelerrate the pace of my arm rotating slightly without feeling a change in my level of exercion.

Breaststroke is not feeling that great at the moment. I'm working on my tilted pelvis and I'm doing postural work in and out of the water. Wrt breasstroke it is really tough for me at the momet to resist the torque generated at the recovery by my unbalanced hip flexors. I think it promotes my bad bias, I've a tough controlling it.

Next butterfly, I think the basis are down and it feel pretty fast. Can't sustain it yet but I' feeling progress in relaxation and the efficiency of my arm work from one swimming session to another. I'm in the rewarding part of the learning curve after lots of effort I'm happy with it. It is easier for me to resist the "torque" generated by the arm and leg in butterfly than in breast though if I overdo it (try to force it) or do not pay attention I bend sideway pretty much instantly.
Overall I really like the feel of it and the speed of it.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 09-11-2018
Tom65 Tom65 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 29
Tom65
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by liolio View Post
global update.

I feel good about my swiming at the moment.
My freestyle is feeling much better, I should time myself one of this day on a 100m (lazyness and and actually a little sacre about what the results would be).
Doing a fast 100 takes it out of you, all about pacing.
Do 25 metre sprints if you want to have some fun with speed, when that gets boring do 50's.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.