Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-31-2018
dubdub
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sinking legs without fins - help!!

I had posted a month or so back on getting my breathing right. The advice I received on these forums helped me quite a bit - I'm able to do 25 yards at a stretch. I can see that I don't panic as much anymore and I become conscious when I go too fast. I'm reminding myself to slow down and I'm not reaching for the wall in a panic. I practice about twice a week for 45 minutes each.

Then about a week back I borrowed my son's fins and that helped me even go 2-3 laps (25 yards) without breaks. I was able to get a good feel for a streamlined posture, rotating body and was able to somewhat correct my arm movements. But when I remove the fins, I'm realizing that my legs sink and drag behind me. I think this was the case even before I used the fins but the usage of the fins have made me aware of this sinking/drag. Without the fins I do 25 yards with about 30 strokes which is not sustainable. I'm very dejected.

I don't want to be dependent on the fins. They have been useful in localizing issues I see with my technique. But now comes the hard part. How do I get my feel/legs to stay afloat?

Also, I read about Finis Rangs. Unlike the fins, if these don't become a crutch, I'd like to use them. (if these are like Kids' floats that you remove one after the other over a period of time by which time the kids have gotten habituated to remain afloat, then I'd be super thrilled).

Any suggestions on rectifying my technique flaw and thoughts on the rangs are most welcome. Thanks

Dubdub
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-31-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

at least fins have helped to get aware that your legs sink.

You can:

- buy Zoomers. Or other very small fins
- only use one fin.one length on the right foot,one length on the left foot.
try to kick also with one leg and hold the other leg still
- use fins, but dont kick.
- use one fin, and dont kick
- go from no kick to a very small kick
- highly exagerate the amplitude of your kick
- etc etc

all variations that can help to get more aware of your stroke, bodyposition and connection between front and back.
Dont swim only with fins. At least mix it up with no fin swimming,

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-31-2018 at 10:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-01-2018
sojomojo sojomojo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 109
sojomojo has disabled reputation
Default

Your dependence on fins to keep your legs from sinking is exactly what I went through. I too thought I’d be dependent on fins forever.

This is how I weaned myself off the fins.

I started each swim session doing the Superman Glide drill.

Swim two laps with the fins.

Swim one lap without the fins.

Swim two laps with the fins.

Swim one lap without the fins.

REPEAT THE FINS ON AND OFF.

Eventually I ended up finding myself swimming more and more without the fins. Now days, I hardly ever swim with fins.

The thing that you’ve got to figure out is the cure for the sinking legs. When I did the Superman Glide drill, I found that if I lowered my extended arms to a deeper depth angle, my legs would stay up near the surface of the water. This was my A-HA moment. When I swam without my fins, I found if I drove my arms a little deeper, my legs stayed up. Thus, no need for fins to keep my legs from sinking.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-01-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
Posts: n/a
Default

A pullbuoy will give you the feeling of where your hips want to be
then you can ditch it and you'll remember the feeling and start to know when your legs are dropping.

Fins imo are no good, it's imprinting kicking to keep the lega afloat which is the opposite of what is wanted for TI
the aim i to use a 2bk for balance and as an aid to rotation and streamline.

Of all the styles TI is the best for learning balance and streamline
the difference can be seen at any pool where the good swimmers are effortlessly streamlined with a minimal 2bk and the mediocre swimmers are kicking like crazy to maintain position

i can spot kick dominant swimmers a mile off now.

(that's not to say kicking is bad and shoulder driven sprinters will be using massive 6bk's etc but the best distance swimmers are not kicking to keep the legs up it's an aid for balance / anchoring & rotation.)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-01-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
Posts: n/a
Default

This isn't TI but it helped me out immensley finding balance
(forget about swimming for a while and devote practice time to the TI balance & streamline drills or work on the richard quick stuff below)
When you get it just add in the arms and legs and you'll understand.

"The last thing were concerned about is what the arms & legs are doing"

https://youtu.be/YwOHzq8Qgso
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-01-2018
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 647
CoachBobM
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dubdub View Post
.But when I remove the fins, I'm realizing that my legs sink and drag behind me. I think this was the case even before I used the fins but the usage of the fins have made me aware of this sinking/drag. Without the fins I do 25 yards with about 30 strokes which is not sustainable. I'm very dejected.

I don't want to be dependent on the fins. They have been useful in localizing issues I see with my technique. But now comes the hard part. How do I get my feel/legs to stay afloat?.
It sounds like your problem is not so much a problem swimming without fins, but a problem of relying too much on your kick to keep your body horizontal. What the fins are really doing is amplifying your kick, thereby making this easier.

What happens when you do Superman Glide without kicking? Are you conscious of your legs sinking? If so, how much of a kick do you have to add to keep this from happening? You shouldn't need to add more than a very gentle kick.

TI freestyle really just goes from your Skate position on one side to your Skate position on the other side, so if you can find your balance in your Skate position without fins, you should be able to do it while swimming freestyle. The keys to finding your balance in Skate are:
  1. head position - are you relaxing your head into the water with your nose pointed down?
  2. position of your leading arm - your wrist should be lower than your shoulder with your palm facing down and your fingertips angled down

If you do these things and your legs are still sinking, trying lowering your leading arm more.

If you have access to water that is over your head (some pools don't provide this), you can improve the effectiveness of your kick by doing Vertical Kicking: Fold your arms across your chest and keep your head above water by kicking. Focus on kicking from your hips and ankles - not from your knees. You can transition to horizontal kicking by starting Vertical Kicking and then letting yourself "fall back" onto your back while still kicking. If you spend some time doing Vertical Kicking each time you have a swim practice, you should see your kick improve over time.

Let us know how you make out!


Bob
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-01-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

If you do these things and your legs are still sinking, trying lowering your leading arm more.

Bob, how far do you want to take this approach?
You pretty soon reach the point of deminishing returns I guess. The idea of bringing more mass in front of the lungs also starts to disappear when lowering the arm.
I think 30 degrees down is about the max for this trick to have nett positive result.

for more ideas about why legs could be sinky
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7ETlhaMsEk
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-01-2018
dubdub
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks for all your responses. I believe coachBob is spot on when he says that the problem is relying too much on the kick to stay horizontal (and the fins are amplifying).

When I did the superman glide I noticed that the legs begin to droop slowly but I didn't pay attention to how much I needed to kick to prevent them from going down. I'll be sure to take note next time.

Also, the pool does have a deep end (10 ft) where I can try the vertical kicking. I'll put all other suggestions to practice and report back.

Dubdub
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-01-2018
novaswimmer novaswimmer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 228
novaswimmer
Default

Also,

1) Make sure you are breathing to the side and not lifting your head to breathe. Any lifting of the head will cause legs/hips to sink.

2) Make sure after you have speared that during the initial part of the underwater stroke the arm is not stroking downward. A downward stroke will lift the upper body resulting in lowering of hips/legs. Sometimes people do that without thinking to raise the head for a breath. All stroking should be directing water backwards for propulsion/anchoring and never downwards.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-01-2018
bx bx is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bournemouth, UK
Posts: 422
bx
Default

Dubdub:-

Squeeze your bum - all the time - like you're trying to crush a grape.

Glute engagement is HARDLY EVER mentioned in TI. I seem to recall
it's mentioned in passing, just once, in one of the newer TI DVDs.

Very interestingly, if you follow the TI twitter account, the most recent post
gives a link to a video on Tim Ferriss' website, where a student was taught
TI by Terry, with Tim in attendance also. There is a point where the student is struggling with horizontal balance, and Tim gets her to do a sort of plank exercise, grabbing Tim's ankles on the pool deck, and raising her legs by engaging her glutes and core muscles.

https://www.facebook.com/thetimferri...2049779826522/
16 minute mark for the reverse hyperextension exercise.

The glutes are a hip extensor, so they straighten the body and keep legs in line.

Glutes engagement also (in my experience) greatly helps to keep scissor kicks and wayward waggles in check.

It is a miracle cure. Please try. It WILL take several weeks or months before continuous glute engagement becomes automatic, because the brain has to develop new neural pathways.


PS
Glutes engaged, but knees not locked out rigid.

Last edited by bx : 08-02-2018 at 04:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.