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  #11  
Old 07-10-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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You can internally rotate both recovery and spear and stay like this throughout the stroke cycles ie entering thumbs down
making 2 internally rotated triangles one above and one below the water
it was fast when i tried it for while but not that comfortable.

Shelia Taormina swims like this
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  #12  
Old 07-10-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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here:
https://youtu.be/a7p0esInFs0
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  #13  
Old 07-11-2018
daveblt daveblt is offline
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I don't really understand what the purpose of this drill is and how it can benefit your swimming.They are entering too narrow and with the thumbs slightly down. This would serve no purpose to me . Enter in front of the shoulder or slightly outside and enter with the pinky pitched down at least just slightly.

Dave

Last edited by daveblt : 07-11-2018 at 02:31 AM.
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  #14  
Old 07-11-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daveblt View Post
I don't really understand what the purpose of this drill is and how it can benefit your swimming.They are entering too narrow and with the thumbs slightly down. This would serve no purpose to me . Enter in front of the shoulder or slightly outside and enter with the pinky pitched down at least just slightly.

Dave
Its Shelia Toarmina's style, she seems to enter and stay internally rotated for the catch what h her underwater arm here:
https://youtu.be/NXCw9t6bV8c
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  #15  
Old 07-11-2018
liolio
 
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May be you should try doing the "steam machine" type of motion with your shoulder and work on how your arm movements blend into that pattern.
The catch start with you arm straight and it may be better for that to happen when you scapula is in a more neutral position.
I'm not sure if it is clear but what I say is to try to have arm lagging the "steam machine" motion of the shoulder or the shoulder being ahead of the arm motion.
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  #16  
Old 07-11-2018
daveblt daveblt is offline
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I have learned to NOT do that type of recovery,and I don't think TI would recommend this recovery ? I think this would eventually cause shoulder impingement and with the weight of the arm out of the water cause balance issues .Maybe for her it works though .

Dave
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  #17  
Old 07-11-2018
liolio
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daveblt View Post
I have learned to NOT do that type of recovery,and I don't think TI would recommend this recovery ? I think this would eventually cause shoulder impingement and with the weight of the arm out of the water cause balance issues .Maybe for her it works though .

Dave
TI looking at Terry when he swam did not but I guess some leel is ok for a healthy person wth otherwise healthy posture, etc. more and more our daily life promote position where the elbow pops out, the forearm is under pronated (max pronation is not reachable by many people), rounded shoulders; etc
=> many issues shoulder impingement but also thoracic syndroms (from the scalene to the pectoralis minor to various wrist nerves and vascular issues).
It is tempting to engage the big powerful muscles that rotates the humerus and moves the arm closer to the front of the torso when nowadays weaker back muscles is the basic (I got told by a teacher that it is safe to assume that most people lower trapezius are way to weak).

It is quite complicate but if you don't rely on internal rotation you have to move you scapula around and it is a pretty solid articulation (no real joint /serratus). As the scapula moves and you extend your arm and fore arm you hae to use the long head triceps more extensively (you keep you elbow closer to your body). It is significantly different kinetic chain, you have to feel it for your self I'm not sure if trained properly it is less efficient actually I would think Phelps does that (though he engage internal rotator for extra juice or not pull too deep).
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  #18  
Old 07-12-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liolio View Post
TI looking at Terry when he swam did not but I guess some leel is ok for a healthy person wth otherwise healthy posture, etc. more and more our daily life promote position where the elbow pops out, the forearm is under pronated (max pronation is not reachable by many people), rounded shoulders; etc
=> many issues shoulder impingement but also thoracic syndroms (from the scalene to the pectoralis minor to various wrist nerves and vascular issues).
It is tempting to engage the big powerful muscles that rotates the humerus and moves the arm closer to the front of the torso when nowadays weaker back muscles is the basic (I got told by a teacher that it is safe to assume that most people lower trapezius are way to weak).

It is quite complicate but if you don't rely on internal rotation you have to move you scapula around and it is a pretty solid articulation (no real joint /serratus). As the scapula moves and you extend your arm and fore arm you hae to use the long head triceps more extensively (you keep you elbow closer to your body). It is significantly different kinetic chain, you have to feel it for your self I'm not sure if trained properly it is less efficient actually I would think Phelps does that (though he engage internal rotator for extra juice or not pull too deep).
I stepped slowly through your description, and from what I understand, you are saying that you can get the similar effect of arm pronation (internal rotation of the humerus on the glenoid fossa, i.e. the "joint" of the scapula) by rotating the whole scapula and sliding it up the posterior rib cage as you reach your mail-slot spearing arm along the line of the swimming direction, thus avoiding potential shoulder rotation repetitive strain injury.

This is a whole new idea for me, and I have never heard of it before. As you say, it involves a whole new kinetic chain. I would have no idea where and how to start training for this motion. Is there any existing literature out there that you know of that deals with this?
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  #19  
Old 07-12-2018
liolio
 
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I may post a longer answer later but pronation/supination is about that foream only. It is the complex movement of the radius around the (not completely) still ulna it also involves the wrist.

Sucky ref but try the Nazi salute, max external rotation of the humerus and in the opposite direction max pronation of the forearm. You should feel tension. On the outer side of the forearm up into the pinky. Try keeping the scapula and try to reach/ push forward.
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  #20  
Old 07-12-2018
liolio
 
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I've some extra time, I'm trying to print that whenever we speak about internal external shoulder rotation for most neutral might already be internally rotated and if one gets into issue it may be a good idea to experience (and discover) the full range of motion of the arm in those opposed rotations ( external arm probation for the forearm). It felt weird to me but got me realize I never did a GOOD push-up. Then clearly the scapula can move a lot and internal rotation is necessary ( but most do not start from neutral and there is a lot of strength to be found by forcing external rotation).
I believe Phelps does it right thought at racing pace one does not have the time for perfect motions so he short cut to increase his spl. Phelps shoulders , flexibility aside which is linked, are not rounded at all and it back is relatively flat too. Many swimmer have rounded shoulders and back, he might do something different so his back muscles are not overwhelmed by his pectoral/front muscles.
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