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  #1  
Old 08-11-2017
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Talvi
Default the catch of the pull and the pull of the catch!

Yesterday, frustrated once again by backward progress during a session, I had an idea. it felt like a betrayal but desperate times call for desperate measures - so I went for it.

I was frustrated with many things but also aware of how my rhythm had improved by practicing breathing every third or fourth stroke. Problem is I can't do that for even a whole length. I run out of puff!

What was clear was that the balance in the rhythm of my strike was to all to pot. Power from each side came at different moments, there were flat points, and a general absence of directional focus.

As I was focussing on the timing of my catch it suddenly occurred to me: use the TT. Instead of focussing on spear or kick or hip or etc, I'd focus on the moment my catch was complete, on the moment I dived over it. So that's what I did.

It was amazing. Perhaps following TI too literally, I had developed an aversion to that specific moment in the UW stroke. If you're doing things right it should just happen, right? So, with steely determination, I've averted my eyes from it. The results have been as described -- dire.

Now though my new catch focus has literally opened my eyes. As that moment is the central point of the stroke it focuses pretty much everything else around it: spear-extension, roll-over, rotation, and the magic of powerless-power -- the timing. This focus is NOT the pull. It's the moment before any of that. It still has power, that feel of sculling through the water, but it's the separation point between that phase and the push-to-exit phase (stroking the dog as Charles once referred to it here) .

As Werner said, we need to have patience and respect in feeling our way into the new, but I'm excited, so thought I'd pass it on. The results were good. I have renewed and perhaps realistic hope of sub 2:00 CSS.

Enjoy.

Thanks Charles Couturier for the comment that has unlocked all of this, eventually!

p.s
this Shinji vid at 2:39 shows the focus point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrSA5l9ppwY
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 08-11-2017 at 02:02 PM.
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  #2  
Old 08-11-2017
novaswimmer novaswimmer is offline
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I'm confused:

'...I'd focus on the moment my catch was complete, on the moment I dived over it....'

Aren't those two different parts of the stroke?

TT = Tempo Trainer, right?

CSS = ??

Thanks!
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  #3  
Old 08-11-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello novaswimmer,

a look at the acronyms list might be helpful... sometimes... :-)

Best regards,
Werner
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Old 08-11-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Talvi,

some only little different aspects, FWIW as always...

Quote:
Yesterday, frustrated once again by backward progress during a session, I had an idea. it felt like a betrayal but desperate times call for desperate measures - so I went for it.
Hmmm... its easier to write about than to practice myself.. We both should do... Why not being happy about, because we at least realized there went something wrong. We should take it as fact of this day and analyze and reset what to do next day. Said it often, but I still do admire Shinji's comments about his attempt to Rodnest Channel. If we're able to treat it this way, we are better swimmers than before... Well, and you fixed with TT-use. So, why hold on the frustration?

Quote:
...Problem is I can't do that for even a whole length. I run out of puff!
How about taking a breath when needed? Every focus will swim away, when we are running out of breath. And we should have in mind: Never practice struggle...

Quote:
...This focus is NOT the pull. It's the moment before any of that. It still has power, that feel of sculling through the water, but it's the separation point between that phase and the push-to-exit phase (stroking the dog as Charles once referred to it here) .
And if you take a still of a beginner's stroke in this special moment you'll get the most ugly picture possible. As you mentioned, all flaws of the stroke seem to run together into this moment. But it shows best how much balance and streamline are able to flatten these flaws out... and being pleased about the improvements.

Talvi, you're a young man 2:00 CSS is possible... and not as far away as you think!

Best regards,
Werner
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  #5  
Old 08-11-2017
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
If we're able to treat it this way, we are better swimmers than before... Well, and you fixed with TT-use. So, why hold on the frustration?

How about taking a breath when needed? Every focus will swim away, when we are running out of breath. And we should have in mind: Never practice struggle...

But it shows best how much balance and streamline are able to flatten these flaws out... and being pleased about the improvements.

Talvi, you're a young man
I don't, that's why I posted ... Good news ... Possible useful experience for others. Maybe not.

I take breaths when I need. But I try things I can't yet do, and grow.

Balance and streamline are key, but swimming is a totality, a system, with each part ( including the mind) affecting every other.

"Young man"!?!? You charmer! :D But this insight (what I tried to describe here) does give me hope (again!)! Let's see :)
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #6  
Old 08-11-2017
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Talvi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novaswimmer View Post
'...I'd focus on the moment my catch was complete, on the moment I dived over it....'

Aren't those two different parts of the stroke?
No.

:)
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #7  
Old 08-12-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Talvi, you cant swim 1000 m in 20 minutes?
How is your fitness level? Can you hold 25 km/h on a bike?
For what I can remember your stroke didnt look that bad and your body looked normal, maybe even on the strong side.
If you cant swim 1000m under 20 minutes there is a problem somewhere.
I get the impression you carry an enourmous amount of stress in your stroke or are trying to be so relaxed that you release too little watts to the water.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 08-12-2017 at 08:01 AM.
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  #8  
Old 08-13-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello ZT,

to try again the Cooper, whom I had esteemed:
From the point of fitness-Level, he measured as (approximately) equivalent:

Jogging/running 2,4km in 10min30s
<==> Swimming 1000m in 20min
<==> Cycling 14km in 27min30s (30,5km/h!)

And he stated doing one of them four times a week, you're in good shape related to normal citizens (not athletics).

...Ok, that was long before TI was born...

Best regards,
Werner
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  #9  
Old 08-13-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Werner and ZT,

I like your comparisons, because they give me an excuse for my swimming. I won't consider jogging, because I am too arthritic to do that, but I don't think I can hold a pace of 30 km/hr on a bike. I would say that 20 km/hr on a flat stretch is more realistic for me.

Of course, all of these are "rules of thumb" with lots of room for exceptions. My bike is not a racing bike and it has large tires. But if 30 km/hr on a bike is the price in conditioning that needs to be paid in order to swim a 30 min mile, then I have a good explanation as to why I am nowhere near being able to do this!
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  #10  
Old 08-13-2017
Streak Streak is offline
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Haha. And by the same reasoning thinking I can do a triathlon because my swimming is OK is a pipe dream! No ways can I achieve those speeds for the bike/run.
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