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  #1  
Old 07-01-2017
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Talvi
Default Increase technique increase speed?

I've taken it for granted until now that as technique improves so too will my pace. Now I'm idly wondering if it is quite so straightforward.

Delivering more power to the water (rather than into making bubbles in it) feels to me to require more/different strength. This is borne out by the physics as even a modest 5% increase in pace requires over 10% more power. (resistance is proportional to the square of the speed)

I imagine that this demand for extra power can easily then lead to a breakdown in other parts of the stroke. I cannot micro-manage each one of the hundreds of muscles involved in swimming so they'll be left to cope/adjust the best they know how with the new demands I'm making on them. In the absence of clear new orders, that will inevitably mean a return to bad habits.

So, my conclusion of the week is to go easy with stroke improvement; to improve technique/feel and then maybe even slow down or not try and go any faster at least until I have grooved the new stroke and swimming thereby feels easier. Then might be the right time to take up the slack created in the system by improved technique and increase my pace.

FWIW
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #2  
Old 07-01-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Talvi,

Quote:
So, my conclusion of the week is to go easy with stroke improvement; to improve technique/feel and then maybe even slow down or not try and go any faster at least until I have grooved the new stroke and swimming thereby feels easier. Then might be the right time to take up the slack created in the system by improved technique and increase my pace.
Yes and no...

Yes, good technique or improved technique will have its pay off with some speed or in less effort, after its immmersed and imprinted in your stroke.

No, it's not as linear as we wished. Just to move faster with your improved new technique might not be the best solution. Because what you've learned and imprinted with (more or less) slow movements might be timed in a tiny other way if you'll use it in your highest SR. FE when you worked on the mailslot-entry it might be best near to your head, but if you'll use this new learned exactness with your higher SR you'll have to adjust the entry point a little more forward to get the pay off, and so its another (new and necessary) FP...

Last but not least I think learning "on the edge" will have the best pay off.
-Balance, streamline, Propulsion, SR and SL FPs in slowest and fastest conditions. Same with neurological FPs. How long can I hold this special FP before getting bored and thoughts wander off, or how long can I hold before the TT has to become the more important FP...

Somewhat unsharp points will have their pay off obviously: Better balance, better streamline, better propulsion, better concentration will have their results in faster pace or less effort. But learning it and integrating it into your whole varity of your stroke might be some additional FPs to learn...

Best regards,
Werner
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  #3  
Old 07-03-2017
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
So, my conclusion of the week is to go easy with stroke improvement; to improve technique/feel and then maybe even slow down or not try and go any faster at least until I have grooved the new stroke and swimming thereby feels easier. Then might be the right time to take up the slack created in the system by improved technique and increase my pace.
I'd suggest a slightly different approach:

1) Use a Tempo Trainer to identify the stroke rate at which you are currently swimming your best/most efficient stroke. Also count the number of strokes you are taking per length when you are using that best/most efficient stroke.

2) Try gradually reducing the interval on your TT and see how far you can lower it while maintaining the same stroke count per length.

As you keep gradually reducing the TT interval time from practice to practice, you should find that you are able to maintain the same stroke count at faster and faster paces.


Bob
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  #4  
Old 07-10-2017
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Thanks guys!

Things moved on and I think my approach has been working. Swimming has definitely become far easier. I've been finding myself swimming distances of a kilometre or thereabouts with little to notify I have done so other than a dim sensation of not wanting to practice-struggle. A kilometre feels now like 300m or 400m. Before all this, going over 600m say, has felt like work, sometimes even after just a few hundred metres but sometimes even within that distance! Now I really want to just keep on keeping on going

(and yes, yes - don't practice struggle - but as anything can feel like struggle and as change most definitely feels like struggle, and probably isn't change if it doesn't, .. not as clear as the mantra makes it sound)

I've been using a TT, mostly just at one setting these days. I always have it with me and usually use it for some laps at least but I haven't found it delivers much benefit via the recommended routes as my technique is so patchy and unknown (despite videos and a long history of posting here). Achieving a solid technique is what I feel like I am starting to get a grip on now.

AndyInNorway (wherehenow?) suggested I practice at 20% faster rates than the CSS I wanted and I've been exploring that idea. Four days ago, at the end of a session, as I was getting into just-one-last-interval, and with the TT set to 1.20, it seemed so slow I wished I had set it to 1.10. When I got hope I checked and found it had been on 1.10 all the time! And I hadn't even been conscious of implementing Andy's suggestion much.

One additional thing I've realised regarding pace is that the turns have a massive impact (and also on my SPL and and and..). So I finally put together a very simple spreadsheet containing the calculation linking SPL, turn, TT, pace etc (see attachments). It surprised me (no surprises for Werner!) and explained the "confusing" results I've been getting (the subject of many of my old posts here).

Werner - "No, it's not as linear as we wished" - ain't that the truth!! :D Spiral development is the only way forward!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg PerformanceCalculationFormulas.jpg (5.1 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg PerformanceCalculations.jpg (17.6 KB, 8 views)
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #5  
Old 07-10-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Hi Talvi, I like the calculations you did in your last post. I wasn't so organized as you, but I did do some experimentation with how many TT beats are optimal for me when I push-off the wall. At Andy's suggestion (years ago), I set my TT to 0.6 S and use 2 beats/arm stroke, because it helps me coordinate myself to the TT better after push-off.

This varies some from day to day, and also with TT setting, but at 1.2s/stroke (what you used) I was surprised (and dismayed) to discover that I got my fastest lap times with 3-4 beats after push-off. At 0.6s/beat, this means I am using a lot shorter push-off than in your calculation. This may mean that I am not very streamlined, but it is what it is. So my suggestion is try playing around with shorter push-off times to see what it does to your times. Your SPL may go up, since you are now swimming a longer distance per lap, but your lap times may go down.

I have also noticed that the time I actually take to turn around at the wall can vary. There are times when I hit the wall at just the right point in my stroke and the turn-around gets nicely integrated into the stroke, and other times when I feel like I am wasting time turning around and I can hear the damn thing beeping in the background while I do it.
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  #6  
Old 07-24-2017
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Hi Werner, I'm re-reading your post, and appreciating it more and more.

I think you are right .. and wrong haha. Theoretically, improved technique WILL increase pace. That's just physics. However, improving technique in one thing will ALSO have an impact on other things, and these we may or may not be aware of. So at first, there may be a momentarily huge improvement that then rapidly disappears as our body readjusts to find previous "homeostasis"/comfort.

One of the coaches here had the analogy of a rosary, each bead a FP, and that we needed to work our way around the rosary over and over again, in a spiral of development (iterative/step-wise improvement).

Do I understand this correctly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Last but not least I think learning "on the edge" will have the best pay off.... learning it and integrating it into your whole varity of your stroke might be some additional FPs to learn...
To achieve sustainable development requires rennaisence: renewed insight and foci, because development is a spiral not a linear process.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 07-24-2017 at 11:49 AM.
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  #7  
Old 07-24-2017
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Talvi
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Hi Danny,

Thanks! :)

I too use that split TT timing. It helps me to find imbalances between left and right sides, especially if I play about with what point in my stroke I focus the beat on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
.. at 1.2s/stroke (what you used) I was surprised (and dismayed) to discover that I got my fastest lap times with 3-4 beats after push-off. At 0.6s/beat, this means I am using a lot shorter push-off than in your calculation. This may mean that I am not very streamlined, but it is what it is. So my suggestion is try playing around with shorter push-off times to see what it does to your times. Your SPL may go up, since you are now swimming a longer distance per lap, but your lap times may go down.
Your results just show that your push-off is not getting you very far for the time you spend in it. I find that the distance I get from my push off varies by a metre or more. It does mean that streamline in the push-off glide is poor but NOT that streamline is generally poor!

You can see precisely what effect all the various things have by plugging in the values for the various variables (but remember: GIGO).

Send me a PM with an email address and I'll send you the spreadsheet. There isn't a way to attach it to this post :(
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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