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  #31  
Old 11-21-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Hello Charles,



All happened at the end of my first ATP (LCM). First stroke at third beep.

Example: 1.3s-41SPL results in 56s/50m or 1.14s-46SPL results in 55s/50m.

All fairly uncomfortable.

Best regards,
Werner
Ahhh you see? Gimme times, then I can really help.

OK. Here's the deal. Based on everything I read from this case, right now? At the mo? With 55s/50m? You are "at the upper end" of what I would qualify as being the fitness training domain. Why? Because you're faster than what you would believe to be your CSS pace.

Did I read that you once tested an actual 1000 and ended up with 20:30? First this is quite good! Second it is very enlightening. All we're missing is the tempo but at least we have the time. A full kilo is a bit long for a continous CSS Test. I find 600m to be much more reasonible. So yes there's a chance that your true CSS pace (swim 1000m in 19:10 and I give you a Million dollars. If you manage this, it's your CSS pace and boy do you own it... on top of owning a million dollars lol).

So 55sec/50 is 1:50 (or so) for 100m, i.e. slightly above your CSS pace. Now there are several angles from which approaching my previous endless post.

Here. At the mo, swimming 55sec is uncomfortable. This clearly yield a question. Could you make it more comfortable upping the rate (at the exact same speed, something too many people don't get), or would you make it more comfortable slowing down the rate...

If you can almost instantly make it more comfortable by adding a stroke per length or 2 (thus increasing the rate to keep time constant), then your sweet spl/rate balance is closer to what makes swimming this distance at that pace more comfortable. That wouldn't mean you're not allowed to "aim" for becoming equally comfortable at lower rate, if this what you like.

Also. Since you're testing at close to your CSS pace. Well nothing beats swimming a distance which correlates with CSS continuous. Say an estimation of your CSS pace obtained using some formula (CSS or SDI) puts you over 800m in 15min flat, and that in reality using your desired rate/length balance you can not do better than 17min, then there's a chance that you're aiming for too big of a gear. In this context, the natural thing to do would be to retest at slightly lower DPS (higher rate, and higher stroke count). You know? I'm not talking about giving up, but rather to try and get the picture.

But yeah I guess that my most important message here is that wheather you aim for it or not, you're training "in the red zone" at the moment when you do these things. So it's not surprising that "by wanting to retain your DPS", and increasing the rate you hit a wall.

If reaching 1.14 at your target DPS gets you to 1:45/100m (for example), then yeah forget it. You're swimming at such a high pace compared to your CSS (aerobic limit) than it's no surprise you can't retain your DPS.

At some point, and you seem to have reached this point, it's not a technical limitation, it's an overall picture limitation, including fitness.
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  #32  
Old 11-21-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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For what it's worth Werner, on top of the above, I might want to share with you my favored approach for developing distance per stroke, or streamlining. My huge compatibility with Total Immersion comes from a true passion for this approach. It's a bit different but in no way incompatible, and far from being mutually exclusive. It's not this or you're wasting your time.

I like to get people to time their swim at a fix stroke rate. No need to count strokes other than if you want to be proactive. I like the 600m as a distance. One of my favorite. But I generally use the 400m too. When I identify a problem, then I cut in smaller chunks.

When time stops improving, it's time to increase the rate. As simple as that. It's fun because you experience a very gradual improvement in your performances, never really stalls. This accounts for one under documented aspect of DPS, that is fractions of a stroke, those dead glides you do before flipping. Sometimes, takes more time to glide than actually adding a stroke. Ask this to the guy that lost the 100m against Phelps at Fly in 2008! In other words, it's not all to count your strokes, if you don't account for the glides. At some point, pace/100m is more influanced by this, stroke count being fairly stable. For example on the clip below, you'll notice I'm stuggling with the glide at 13 spl. Of course I wasn't warmed up nothing. But the first improvement we'd see if I had trained and retested would have been tighter turns.

And when I really have significant issues (with some athletes, and it does happen some times), then I drop off the challenge and really there's no limit as to how much the glide. If body is poorly aligned or off balance, I think it can't hurt to do pure streamline work. Gliding on a rail. See TL's clip below on that. Impressive. This can even be done with no dead spot in the pulling phase. You just take a very smooth and gradual catch.

In fact, this is how I look (unfit, sorry for the pull, if I'm unfit and do these works, I would rather have one.. easier to reach purity) at 1.3 over 100m at this game. That's my best possible effort. That day even at that pace I could reach aerobic fitness pace (1:25/100m). However, at that rate, trust me... 100m was all I could handle that night. I would have came back in about 1:35 should I had try a 200m. So in order to swim this aerobic fitness pace that night over 400m which would have been a reasonable expectation (though a bit challenging), I would have needed to trade 13, a technique/streamline DPS for 16 that I'm sure. Even 15 would have been too much.

If I could draw a set of rules which apply to all and make this whole question simpler I would, but I'm fraid I'm not even half way through understanding all this. Hope I could help you anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQmM0LIuWa8

Again I'm not suggesting counting strokes is bad, in fact it's fun. But sometimes to vary you could throw in a 400-600m continous effort and time it. That could help you setting the records straight as then you're putting more focus on the time dimension, which in itself can help you find your way. You're already training over what you can probably achieve over 600m. So there's no shame in timing yourself.

Here's Terry with one of the most impressive swim expose, posture, dynamically you have to alternate side. While right hand side gets on rail, left hand side finishes a mobile and disturbing motion. If posture on right hand side isn't kept, you loose "a whole lot" of speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWzQc1XadHk

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 11-21-2014 at 03:22 AM.
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  #33  
Old 11-21-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello haschu33,

have in mind and drop me a line if enough time and interest to take a pooltime together.

Quote:
So, based on our strong habituated patterns we can trust our stroke.
Surely. But when I'm convinced by my own stroke (or a part of it) Terry's Twain quote apperars, or next day shows my arrogance nearly always. Too seldom it's a true step away from a Potbellied pig. (Mindful swimming has made me very humble.)

Quote:
My personal approach to faster rates is this:
1. Finding a way to fit my stroke into the shorter time pattern (That 'shortening of the stroke' I spoke about).
2. When that works starting to relax. Trying to relax every single muscle that is not really needed.
3. And related to 2: Finding a good rhythm, because rhythm saves a lot of energy.
4. Putting the focus on stroke details and optimize them.
Do you have a stepped program for these that you'll share with us?

Quote:
...My 2 cent...
This must be a true valuable very old 2ct coin!

Thank you very much, with best regards,
Werner
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  #34  
Old 11-21-2014
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Hi doc,

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
I think us coaches discuss thsi quite often..giving up length and pushing the rate a bit at a time. ...
I am still wondering whether this qualifies as solace for us lonely wolves out there... :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
There are many places you can "give up" length, not just at the rear end. it's easy to let water slip any where you like...but of course only if you've learned how to grip in the first place.
Would you mind expounding that ?
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  #35  
Old 11-21-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Suzanne,

Quote:
There are many places you can "give up" length, not just at the rear end. it's easy to let water slip any where you like...but of course only if you've learned how to grip in the first place.
Should this become a drill even at lower SRs? Please be so kind and give me some more details if so.

Quote:
I'm glad it raised questoins for you. While the "live teaching" part of the course is long since done,at least for 2014 I will go back and review your posts.
Thank you. But please as planned(?) put this course into an ebook with some video links or a CD included. Sure it will be a huge help for many of mostly alone self teaching swimmers after their first steps in TI! Next year I'll run through it a second time... Once more in group A.

Quote:
There is no such thing as "failure" so I'm curious to see if I can read that in your comments. Hopefully it was clear as I addressed other participants posts that everything is adaptable to the individual...
Possbily the wrong word. It showed very clearly many weak points in my swimming. And never reached the fast, faster, even faster... Goals satisfactorily.

Quote:
...If the set raised questions then it was a success.
Yes it was and still is a success, even for me. Not only in starting a thread but got another new look at my swimming.

Quote:
There's no way I can sit in my living room and tell a dozen or a hundred anonymous swimmers what their goal should be.
It is reassuring for mortals like me, that even you don't find such a way!

BTW I'm aware I jumped in far too late. But for me it's like the (since TI boring) Cooper plans a long time valid basis.

Thank you very much and best regards,
Werner
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  #36  
Old 11-21-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Charles,

long thread with some long Posts; please be generous for the possibly back and forth...

Quote:
Ahhh you see? Gimme times, then I can really help.

OK. Here's the deal. Based on everything I read from this case, right now? At the mo? With 55s/50m? You are "at the upper end" of what I would qualify as being the fitness training domain. Why? Because you're faster than what you would believe to be your CSS pace.
Yes-no... It is faster than my expected CSS pace (2:00min). But I think I can swim this 55s/50m with less efford in a lower SR and little less efford.


Quote:
Did I read that you once tested an actual 1000 and ended up with 20:30? First this is quite good!
Let's stay in your absolute terms: Many other work to do if you can not swim 100m below 2min easily.

It feels not so easy. But if swimming with a TT I can shave half a minute.. also not easily...

Quote:
Second it is very enlightening. All we're missing is the tempo but at least we have the time. A full kilo is a bit long for a continous CSS Test.
(Goethes last words: More light!) It was a timetrial just to look at the 1000m time. (Swam 1500m in 30min (SCM) 18 months ago - with TT. Not there now. And Twain or not, I'm sure my stroke improved... to the better...)

Quote:
I find 600m to be much more reasonible. So yes there's a chance that your true CSS pace (swim 1000m in 19:10 and I give you a Million dollars. If you manage this, it's your CSS pace and boy do you own it... on top of owning a million dollars lol).
LOL too! You're coward at the secure side!


Quote:
...Here. At the mo, swimming 55sec is uncomfortable. This clearly yield a question. Could you make it more comfortable upping the rate (at the exact same speed, something too many people don't get), or would you make it more comfortable slowing down the rate...
As above I think this might be. I'll give it a try next week. (The 1.3s was 1s faster...)

Quote:
If you can almost instantly make it more comfortable by adding a stroke per length or 2 (thus increasing the rate to keep time constant), then your sweet spl/rate balance is closer to what makes swimming this distance at that pace more comfortable. That wouldn't mean you're not allowed to "aim" for becoming equally comfortable at lower rate, if this what you like.
Yes this I'd like very much. But it will feel better if I have a decision how to do it and over all know, what I'm able to do in which way.

Quote:
Also. Since you're testing at close to your CSS pace. Well nothing beats swimming a distance which correlates with CSS continuous. Say an estimation of your CSS pace obtained using some formula (CSS or SDI) puts you over 800m in 15min flat, and that in reality using your desired rate/length balance you can not do better than 17min, then there's a chance that you're aiming for too big of a gear. In this context, the natural thing to do would be to retest at slightly lower DPS (higher rate, and higher stroke count). You know? I'm not talking about giving up, but rather to try and get the picture.
Yes-but... Another variable appears. Without TT and counting strokes my feeling for pace gets nearly lost. Coupled to SR especially there are some stroke parts I can vary. More or less hip nudge, more or less rotation, more forward or more deeper spear, more or less shoulder shrugg applying force sooner or later. All this has an effect in more or less effort and SR and SPL. But all these are not exactly reproducable at all SRs (even not in my comfort zone.) So I can't decide what's better or bad for optimized strokes over all.[/quote]

Quote:
But yeah I guess that my most important message here is that wheather you aim for it or not, you're training "in the red zone" at the moment when you do these things. So it's not surprising that "by wanting to retain your DPS", and increasing the rate you hit a wall.
...another brick in the wall? Or "If I had a Hammer..." (May be you're too young for these hits... But how to break it down or dig a tunnel?)

Quote:
If reaching 1.14 at your target DPS gets you to 1:45/100m (for example), then yeah forget it. You're swimming at such a high pace compared to your CSS (aerobic limit) than it's no surprise you can't retain your DPS.

At some point, and you seem to have reached this point, it's not a technical limitation, it's an overall picture limitation, including fitness.
So, what's your recommendation how to shape my ATPs, if I were one of your course members. (I'm aware the hurdles to get in might be too high...)

Thanks and best regards,
Werner
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  #37  
Old 11-21-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Charles,

second follow up with some remarks and questions...

Quote:
For what it's worth Werner, on top of the above, I might want to share with you my favored approach for developing distance per stroke, or streamlining. My huge compatibility with Total Immersion comes from a true passion for this approach. It's a bit different but in no way incompatible, and far from being mutually exclusive. It's not this or you're wasting your time.
Never found a wasted second when reading your posts or trying your hints.

Quote:
I like to get people to time their swim at a fix stroke rate.
Does this mean, anyone should swim with TT as often as possible?

Quote:
No need to count strokes other than if you want to be proactive. I like the 600m as a distance. One of my favorite. But I generally use the 400m too. When I identify a problem, then I cut in smaller chunks.
What is an identified problem? Getting out breath? Realizing fishtailing in push off? Is a it still a problem when could be repaired at once? I ask, because I can't remember a single lap without identifying a problem.

Quote:
When time stops improving, it's time to increase the rate. As simple as that. It's fun because you experience a very gradual improvement in your performances, never really stalls.
Does it mean, you cut the SR (time) down? In what parts and steps do you do it? For example: Every 4 laps 0.02s? Not sure if I understood your "improving time" right...

Quote:
This accounts for one under documented aspect of DPS, that is fractions of a stroke, those dead glides you do before flipping. Sometimes, takes more time to glide than actually adding a stroke. Ask this to the guy that lost the 100m against Phelps at Fly in 2008! In other words, it's not all to count your strokes, if you don't account for the glides. At some point, pace/100m is more influanced by this, stroke count being fairly stable. For example on the clip below, you'll notice I'm stuggling with the glide at 13 spl. Of course I wasn't warmed up nothing. But the first improvement we'd see if I had trained and retested would have been tighter turns.
Hope you'll do some work on it further on and let us participate.

Quote:
And when I really have significant issues (with some athletes, and it does happen some times), then I drop off the challenge and really there's no limit as to how much the glide. If body is poorly aligned or off balance, I think it can't hurt to do pure streamline work. Gliding on a rail. See TL's clip below on that. Impressive. This can even be done with no dead spot in the pulling phase. You just take a very smooth and gradual catch.
... and this with any chosen SR.... GRRMPFH...

Quote:
In fact, this is how I look (unfit, sorry for the pull, if I'm unfit and do these works, I would rather have one.. easier to reach purity) at 1.3 over 100m at this game. That's my best possible effort. That day even at that pace I could reach aerobic fitness pace (1:25/100m). However, at that rate, trust me... 100m was all I could handle that night. I would have came back in about 1:35 should I had try a 200m. So in order to swim this aerobic fitness pace that night over 400m which would have been a reasonable expectation (though a bit challenging), I would have needed to trade 13, a technique/streamline DPS for 16 that I'm sure. Even 15 would have been too much.
Think many of the forum members would be glad to swim your unfit way as best possible at highest fitness state....

Thank you very much and with best regards,
Werner
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  #38  
Old 11-22-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Another way of working on your grip is swimming in extreme slowmotion.
Its more an awareness exercise, a check what your pull is doing to your balance.
Just start from horizontal float. Just float. Zero speed.
Imagine you are floating in an endless nice tropical ocean.
Now from that sense of floting and being supported add the tiniest arm movements to give a mini impuls to move you forward.
The gane is to always feel the floating force. Thats the basics, Like you are lying on a surfboard, only deeper.
When you make small very very slow pulls you can feel how these are disturbing your fragile balance.
Slowly make the movement bigger and bigger, but never loose the basic flotation feeling.
You will find out fast what the movement that is imprinted in your muscle memory does to you balance,
I often discover that I have to position my arm in pretty wierd angles to move forward without disturbing balance.
But if you do this for half an hour and take some of the new learnt movements in slightly faster real swimming, you often swim faster with less effort.
You also can pull the car faster without the line breaking if you are sure you are pulling in the right direction.

Sadly I dont think this game can be played by everyone. If you really have sinky legs and cant float horizintal your have to kick a bit and that can distract so much that you are not able to feel what your pull does to your balance,
I would say add minimal floatation aid at the rear to just being able to get level but thats not really TI approved probably.
A snorkel is also ideal, but not rreally needed because you use so little air you hardly need to breeth.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 11-22-2014 at 08:09 AM.
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  #39  
Old 11-22-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Zenturtle,

your pictures for imagination are really great! (Are you an artist for photographs or paintings?) I don't feel as a sinker, so that will not be a problem.

Some time ago I tested my similar "swimming just before turbulance" appears. It turned out as interesting 16SPLs, the center of my green zone.

But I never tried it for half an hour, just one or two lengths. Have it in my book if have some minutes more pooltime than actual.

What I do like also, it takes a view from the other end (extreme slow SR to look how they'll impact my grip at threshold in the (for me) extreme high SRs.)

Many thanks and best regards,
Werner
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  #40  
Old 11-22-2014
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
Hi doc,

Would you mind expounding that ?
Regarding giving up SPL at the front...

Developing a higher catch for me has resulted in less shoulder stress from the perspective of force productoin, but it does require flexibility and mobility in the shoulder joint.

Ie a lever the length of the forearm to the hand is shorter than a lever the length of a partial upper arm sloped to a slightly vertical forearm.

Wherease the latter may allow a less flexible person to grab a good armful of water it may also produce more force per stroke.

The effective high elbow catch is actually a very short lever moved by a more powerful muscle group (the lats) and for me is less stressful on the shoulders...but this assume I hvae the flexibility and to find it.

Another example of slipping force at the front of hte stroke is to simple stroke more slowly at the front until you feel hte grip get stronger, or to *gasp* deliberately let the elbow drop a bit. it does work to decrease force but then I would perhaps opt instead for a lower rate and a slower start to the stroke.
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