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  #21  
Old 11-20-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
The strength I had been building in p90x3 felt great to use, but I had not been implementing that strengt in the pool. Normally a 14 SPL 100 would be on the order of 1:50-1:55, so to do so in 1:30 (faster than my pre-TI PR) meant i was accessing all of the DPS that I owned.
FWIW, your p90 = my sprints. You better understand now why I would never train a distance person relying solely on typical distance sets. Sprinting, or p90, or any other means of gaining force/power will likely benefit to overall swim performances. So that's "my" big 3 (applied to pool training): Sprint, technique/balance/streamline and distance related fitness (aka CSS). Every component is beneficial for the 2 others. And oh! Dryland acquired strength will not transfer into your swimming, as it is not specific... says who? lol

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 11-20-2014 at 09:48 PM.
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  #22  
Old 11-20-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Sclim,

Quote:
Just to understand you clearly, when you become a soda machine etc., and you are losing energy, this is manifested as a marked rise in SPL, right?
Right. For example: Last weeks I mostly swam 1-3ATPs. Way back I go down until my SR gets 3-4Strokes out of my green zone. Today (LCM) with TT 1.3s-41SPL; 1.24s-42SPL; 1.2-42SPL; 1.14s-46SPL.... all felt fairly uncomfortable...

Best regards,
Werner
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  #23  
Old 11-20-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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And what were the resulting swim times Werner?
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  #24  
Old 11-20-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Charles,

Quote:
Hmm, I couldn't wait trying a quick but "partial" answer here.
Thankful for all thaughts and posts you put into the forum!

Quote:
Throughout this endless post, notice that I avoided recommending the SS ramp up test. Not that I had any issues with it so far. But in 2011, I ran a very comprehensive and methodical study on how to gradually increase the rate. In short? The first thing which struck me like a runaway train, is that it takes much much more time than 1min rest "in between" to "master a rate which is problematic". That experiment really changed my view on how to handle this. A lot of time may be required. A full week at best!! The SS ramp up test does an excellent job at telling you what your comfortable and productive rate/dps balance is "today", as of "now". But I wouldn't rely on it for establishing what the ideal rate/balance should be in a near future (as part of a continuous development/improvement).
Every day a ramp up test? Beware! Here another question appears: How to deal with day to day form? The variation in green zone will be OK.. for TI. Or take a tune up start and add your advised five strokes? (This sometimes will lead out of the green zone.) And what's moving me always how to deal with this rising zone of discomfort. Just go to threshold or go above as far as I can? Is this still mindful swimming?

Quote:
So right there in your question I see that this 1.2 scaring beast is now in the process of being "tamed". I'm not surprised that this didn't happen overnight, and wouldn't be surprise if you required at least 2 weeks, if not a full month, if not more to adapt to a rate which is 2 spm higher, etc... That is what Terry (and other good coaches) refer to neural adaptation. It includes fitness adaptation and neuro-muscular adaptataion.
I argue, wha you call "taming" is more a result of random. Neuro-muscular adaptation in the right way? Or in imprinting new bad habits?

Quote:
BTW I'm impressed by your numbers Werner. You must be doing a bunch of things right....
Stay honest! At least I hope there is not all bad in my stroke. But exactly that feeling overwhelmes me while swimming at TTs below this (for now?) magic wall 1.2s.

My question in other words: Do I have to deal with that bad, uncomfortable feeling and get used of it, or is there a more comfortable way (in Germany we call it a King's way... in swimming the TI-way?)?

With many thanks and best regards,
Werner
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  #25  
Old 11-20-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Suzanne,

Quote:
This reminds me of an unintended experiment I did awhile ago. For me 16 SPL is now easily attainable form wise, and is my deafault "tune up" or "cool down" spl. I can go lower as well at will sometimes due to force and other times due to letting rate slow down.

last winter after getting started back on p90x3 fitness routine (message me if you are intersted!) I went to the pool and started swimming without a plan. Immediately I swam 14 SPL with no effort...It felt great and I kept it up swimming a 1:30 100yd (SCY) all at 14SPL. Then I was done. I bonked, I could do no more, I was completely trashed!

The strength I had been building in p90x3 felt great to use, but I had not been implementing that strengt in the pool. Normally a 14 SPL 100 would be on the order of 1:50-1:55, so to do so in 1:30 (faster than my pre-TI PR) meant i was accessing all of the DPS that I owned.

Just interesting how our bodies change over time. There was nothing "right or wrong" babout that experience, but then I was faced with goign to the pool and deliberately giving up SPL to swim at a more sustainable DPS, even for faster times. While I was quite capable of swimmign 14s, 15s or 16s...if I want endurance at any speed faster than a 1:40...I need to give something up. It's an informed tradeoff
Have no time for out of pool exercises, but am very interested, what p90x3 is.

Body changes in my years are not always interesting. But I hope there is some room for improvement to the better, not only the doctor's "according to age very well".

How do you decide your tradeoff. (I have to do when want swim faster than 2:00min... and always think after 12 strokes: Shinji's still there and when on the turn: Suzanne's recovered for 20s...)

Thank you very much and best regards,
Werner

PS: Your Fast Forward led to all these questions. Although failed many/most of the set's goals it is a highly interesting mixture of TI-like technique training and endurance work (think this part is also TI-proofed).

Last edited by WFEGb : 11-20-2014 at 11:13 PM. Reason: PS-Addition
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  #26  
Old 11-20-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Charles,

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
And what were the resulting swim times Werner?
All happened at the end of my first ATP (LCM). First stroke at third beep.

Example: 1.3s-41SPL results in 56s/50m or 1.14s-46SPL results in 55s/50m.

All fairly uncomfortable.

Best regards,
Werner

Last edited by WFEGb : 11-20-2014 at 11:06 PM. Reason: Numbers correction
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  #27  
Old 11-20-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello haschu33,

glad to read a new post! Hope you're back in the forum and you got rid of your shoulder impingement. If so, let us meet and video each other next weeks...

Quote:
...I think I know what you mean, Werner, and I have an idea about it, I don't know if it helps...
Sure your post hits exactly the nail's head. As wrote in my other answers, still unsecure if the right cure is found. TI showed us, the FS-stroke is a highly complicated matter. In my very slow SRs I developed a feeling, having at least one more or less tiny aspect under control. And this feeling vanishes at higher SRs completely.

In your post and as we met you said, you often go down or better even start the TT with settings below 1.0s. Think I have to develop the confidence, not everything of the stroke will fall appart with that setting. Don't have time to think about when Swimming. The TT prevents. The doubts come after.

Let us read more of your deep thaughts.

Thank you very much and best regards,
Werner
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  #28  
Old 11-21-2014
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Hi Werner,

My shoulders are ok, ... still don't have much time for swimming, unfortunately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
TI showed us, the FS-stroke is a highly complicated matter. In my very slow SRs I developed a feeling, having at least one more or less tiny aspect under control. And this feeling vanishes at higher SRs completely.
...
If we do a movement at a fairly slow and 'controlled' speed, everything is quite easy. We can break the movement into parts and analyze every single part of it.
When we speed up that same movement we inevitably loose precision and control. Breaking down the movement in parts now becomes a deadly matter: we loose momentum and rhythm, we might completely lose it. When being slow rhythm is not so important and harder to implement - we can control the movement while it happens. Moving fast is based on rhythm.
But the good point is: while being slow our movement patterns get habituated. Since we do a lot of habituation, that habituation is quite strong and will still work when we move faster - as long as we don't overdo it. Although some neural adaptation is necessary at higher rate - it also needs practice.
What will you do if someone shows you a complicated, fast movement and asks you to repeat it? You will ask that person to do it slowly, you will break it in parts and then habituate it. Only then you can start to do it faster.
That's what we do here. So what happens when we swim at faster rates is this: we feel we lose control but our movements in fact do not lose the pattern - except that it might get a little less sharp and punctuated.
So, based on our strong habituated patterns we can trust our stroke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
...
My question in other words: Do I have to deal with that bad, uncomfortable feeling and get used of it, or is there a more comfortable way (in Germany we call it a King's way... in swimming the TI-way?)?
I think it is yes and no. You have to deal with it but you don't have to get used to the uncomfortable feeling.
This is exactly my point, and I can base it only on the personal little experience that I have: at faster speeds we first have to find the comfortable, rhythmic, easy and relaxed feeling and then go for the details. The other way round doesn't work. A little mix will probably work well.

Here's a little thinking exercise: Let's say I swim at a rate of 0.9. I will be exhausted and need to recover after 3 or at the most four laps of 25m. That makes 100m max. My fitness level is not very good.
Now, there are folks out there who swim 10k, which is 100 times 100 m. Those folks swim at 0.9 or faster. Now, is the fitness level of those folks 100 times better than mine or even more? Quite sure not. Although hard to measure, their fitness sure is several times better, but not that much, which probably is impossible. Also they don't have heavy loads of muscles on their shoulders. At least not a 100 times more than me.
Which means, it is not the fitness level alone that enables them to swim that distance at that speed, or the muscles they have. There is something else. And that must lie in the way they move. When they move at high rates they obviously use a lot less energy then I do.
So it is a question of swimming technique, but it surely does not have to do with how to catch or grip, at least not at the major part. Because we from TI are not that bad on these points.
Which means it can only be a question of ease, of rhythm and of relaxation.

There we go again.

My personal approach to faster rates is this:
1. Finding a way to fit my stroke into the shorter time pattern (That 'shortening of the stroke' I spoke about).
2. When that works starting to relax. Trying to relax every single muscle that is not really needed.
3. And related to 2: Finding a good rhythm, because rhythm saves a lot of energy.
4. Putting the focus on stroke details and optimize them.

At present I am stuck at 2. and 3.


My 2 cent...
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  #29  
Old 11-21-2014
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
Hi Werner,

I swam very very little for about a year, and visited the forum only a few times... still...

I think I know what you mean, Werner, and I have an idea about it, I don't know if it helps.

When swimming at faster speeds I have to adapt my stroke. At 1.4 you can easily spear, pause a little, then catch, then anchor, then finish the 'pull' with a little snap, get your arm out and start again, and do everything very particular and 'nice'.
At 1.0, or 0.9, or 0.8, or 0.7, this simply doesn't work any more. Maybe not even at 1.2 when you are used to slower rates.
Somehow this never gets mentioned, but I am convinced that the faster the rate is the more you have to shorten the stroke. You can only shorten it at the 'rear end', so no pulling through to the thighs, no accentuated snap, just get your arm out when it is at hip level and bring it swiftly in front. This pulling out early and fast is the handle to adapt to high stroke rates IMHO.
I think us coaches discuss thsi quite often..giving up length and pushing the rate a bit at a time. 1.4 to 1.2 is a big jump not to mention to 1.0, .9, .8 etc.

There are many places you can "give up" length, not just at the rear end. it's easy to let water slip any where you like...but of course only if you've learned how to grip in the first place.
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Coach of 4 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #30  
Old 11-21-2014
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Hello Suzanne,


PS: Your Fast Forward led to all these questions. Although failed many/most of the set's goals it is a highly interesting mixture of TI-like technique training and endurance work (think this part is also TI-proofed).
I'm glad it raised questoins for you. While the "live teaching" part of the course is long since done,at least for 2014 I will go back and review your posts.

There is no such thing as "failure" so I'm curious to see if I can read that in your comments. Hopefully it was clear as I addressed other participants posts that everything is adaptable to the individual.

There's no way I can sit in my living room and tell a dozen or a hundred anonymous swimmers what their goal should be. If the set raised questions then it was a success.
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Coach of 4 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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