Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 07-18-2013
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 787
haschu33
Default

Sometimes, after swimming extensively I felt my shoulders. But most of the time - and that already during the swim - I felt a general tiredness but no specific sore muscles or muscle groups.
I always had the feeling that when the large muscles in the back get heavily used they - unlike other muscles - don't get sore but generate a general feeling of tiredness - more while than after the swim.

But I don't know if that is the case really.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 07-18-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
Posts: 1,675
Talvi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
...If you trade some distance per stroke for a faster stroke rate it might feel different,
That's what gets you deep inside I think
Great idea. I will try that. Now I "know" what the stroke "feels" like, maybe I can take a bit of a rush at it, get all tangled up, rein it back until I get the feel again, and repeat. If I could do that it would give me a much better "perspective" on the stroke generally.

What did you mean by that last sentence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
...Is the drained feeling immediately when you get out of the pool, or is it delayed?...
There is something of a delay, but there are different types of tiredness. At first I feel a very enjoyable tiredness, a relaxed feeling. The delayed tiredness is different, heavier, more demanding somehow.

Tenseness in the swim is one thing that balance hellps with, but I also think the rotational twisting movement creates an intense whole body exercise and that the horizontal position changes the skeletal stresses. Spine, knees and hips are all "decompressed"/stretched rather than compressed for instance. I am thinking of the effect gravity has on the lymphatic system i.e that node draining happens differently.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 07-18-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
Posts: 1,675
Talvi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
...I always had the feeling that when the large muscles in the back get heavily used they - unlike other muscles - don't get sore but generate a general feeling of tiredness...
Only just noticed this Haschu, sounds very pertinent to me as I have noticed my middle back/spine feeling sore/achey.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 07-18-2013
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
Default

Here is one possible difference between swimming and some other sports, which may be relevant to some of the above comments. I think there are two different types of muscle exertion: first the jerking type which is needed for jumping or other quick motions, and second the slower type of motion which, for each cycle isn't necessarily hard on the muscle, but repetitions can get to you. Since jerking motions just stir up turbulence in the water, swimming should consist largely of slower muscle contractions, at least for those of us who concentrate on distance as opposed to sprinting. This may be different from running or other sports where quickness plays a role. Could it be that these different types of muscle motion produce different types of fatigue?

In this regard, I think that as we try to increase our stroke rate, the emphasis is not so much on contracting our muscles more quickly, but rather on coordinating the different muscles groups so that they can work together at a faster pace.

Last edited by Danny : 07-18-2013 at 03:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 07-19-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
Posts: 1,675
Talvi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
I think there are two different types of muscle exertion: first the jerking type which is needed for jumping or other quick motions, and second the slower type of motion which, for each cycle isn't necessarily hard on the muscle.
That made me think of breast meat and leg meat in chicken and turkey and there followed a heap of research. There are indeed two types but in humans these are combined in the same muscle. They can also be converted into each other over time. These two types of fibre are often referred to as fast-twitch and slow-twitch. The interesting stuff for me though was reading of the way energy is stored and used. Both fibres use energy in different processes, and here you need to get into not only glycogen but ATP use and also the mineral salt ionising processes in the reactions concerened. In this last there is something I think is noteworthy with respect to swimming:- the "fight-or-flight" hormone comes into the energy release process.

Here's a bit of the further reading that this comes from fwiw. The first is published by the Gale Foundation and gives an overview. The second is more "hard core" but the most interesting, and the third included for some by the way stuff which I also found interesting:
1. http://www.faqs.org/sports-science/S...etabolism.html
2. http://www.pnas.org/content/98/2/457.full.pdf
3. http://www.brianmac.co.uk/articles/scni6a3.htm
This last paper I think represents the "old" school understanding which leads to the paradox described and addressed in the second paper above:
4. http://physrev.physiology.org/conten...287.full#sec-5

EDIT:
one more! Research on thermoregulatory responses during serial cold-water immersions
5. http://jap.physiology.org/content/85/1/204.long
This grabbed my attention in the abstract:
"repeated cold exposures may impair the ability to maintain normal body temperature because of a blunting of metabolic heat production, perhaps reflecting a fatigue mechanism"
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 07-19-2013 at 02:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 07-19-2013
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
That made me think of breast meat and leg meat in chicken and turkey and there followed a heap of research. There are indeed two types but in humans these are combined in the same muscle. They can also be converted into each other over time. These two types of fibre are often referred to as fast-twitch and slow-twitch. The interesting stuff for me though was reading of the way energy is stored and used. Both fibres use energy in different processes, and here you need to get into not only glycogen but ATP use and also the mineral salt ionising processes in the reactions concerened. In this last there is something I think is noteworthy with respect to swimming:- the "fight-or-flight" hormone comes into the energy release process.

Here's a bit of the further reading that this comes from fwiw. The first is published by the Gale Foundation and gives an overview. The second is more "hard core" but the most interesting, and the third included for some by the way stuff which I also found interesting:
1. http://www.faqs.org/sports-science/S...etabolism.html
2. http://www.pnas.org/content/98/2/457.full.pdf
3. http://www.brianmac.co.uk/articles/scni6a3.htm
This last paper I think represents the "old" school understanding which leads to the paradox described and addressed in the second paper above:
4. http://physrev.physiology.org/conten...287.full#sec-5

EDIT:
one more! Research on thermoregulatory responses during serial cold-water immersions
5. http://jap.physiology.org/content/85/1/204.long
This grabbed my attention in the abstract:
"repeated cold exposures may impair the ability to maintain normal body temperature because of a blunting of metabolic heat production, perhaps reflecting a fatigue mechanism"
Talvi, what you write is very interesting. However, I am starting to suspect that your background in the area of human metabolism is quite a bit ahead of mine, so I would like to ask a favor of you, if this makes sense. Eventually I would like to get to the references you have listed above, but it would help me to know if there are answers or possible answers to the following questions:
(1) Are the symptoms for fatigue of these two different muscle types different, and, if so, how?
(2) Is their ability to function when they get cold different?
If you can give me an idea of where these questions are addressed in your references, that would make the job of reading through them and understanding them a lot easier! Only if you are up to it :o)

Thanks, Danny
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 07-19-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
Posts: 1,675
Talvi
Default specialist generalist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
..I am starting to suspect that your background in the area of human metabolism is quite a bit ahead of mine ... if there are answers or possible answers to the following questions...
I'm just good at getting to the heart of things :D It's my job (or was). No specialism here though so beware/caveat etc.

In medicine, as with the definition of "shock", the term "fatigue" is, in a sense, only coincidentally linked to the "sensation of fatigue" that you're referring to, so there's no simple answer. If you get into reading the refs etc you'll find that many factors affect both aspects - the sensations reported as well as the results of measurements made. You'll also discover that there is not a single 1-2-1 relationship between the two. With this aspect you have to figure out the "language" your own sensations are "speaking" to you in by matching them to the empirical processes you can learn are actually underway.

For instance, my sensations of cold during swimming in OW match precisely the empirical evidence of that last paper I posted. I'd not figured out what was going on though until I'd read that. Then it all clicked into place, and I also got pointers on how to interpret my sensations during a swimming session and dream up strategies for acclimatising and managing the effects of cold afterwards. It all just more learning curves.

The second paper is a tough read especially if you're not used to researching stuff from different technical fields. Read just the abstracts and concluding remarks and you'll get a lot out of it though. Also Bear in mind that the glycogen shunt paper was written back in 2000 and I haven't checked much further.

If you've got anything specific after doing that I could try and answer. We need to be talking the same language though (I mean about the empirical stuff not the sensation stuff).
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.