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  #11  
Old 06-10-2013
tomoy tomoy is offline
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Nice video. Perfectly describes what some here are pointing out (and I had forgotten). That the deeper spear puts your hand in perfect catch position for a good anchor.

I think I'll have to revisit this. I've had on/off bouts with shoulder pain. I've worked on not reaching too far forward above water, and anchoring inside my shoulder lines (outside gives great traction, but at a painful cost), but haven't measured the effect of spearing more deeply. Thanks everyone.

I h
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  #12  
Old 06-10-2013
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
...Since playing with that position I can now easily swim at 1-2 fewer SPL than before (14-15 consistently at my warmup pace/effort) as opopsed to 15/16 of the past several years. (I am 5'3", with 5'4" wingspan)
Of course I believe every word you say...

On the pictures below yours and Terry's spearing angle is parallel to the water surface. Only Shinji has a deeper angle. All shots from a non-breathing stroke.

I am wondering to what degree this deep spearing might just be a mental image?




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  #13  
Old 06-10-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Hiya Charles! So test how? I have a shallower spear (I think). I am pretty flexible, on terra firma anyway. This is where my confusion sprang from.
.
Simple, combination of swim time and distance per stroke, at any given rate.

For example, a bunch of 50m at 1.2. Test different spear angle, see the impact on DPS/Speed.
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  #14  
Old 06-10-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
There is a tradeoff in spearing angle between streamlining and helping to set up the next catch/anchor position. Counterintuitively, sometimes a deeper spear or at least a steeper forearm position can improve the next catch enough that the small amount of drag created from it is well compensated for by the strength of the next stroke, whereas a shallow spear may create less drag but the subsequent stroke may "slip" a little while trying to get traction. ... I never realized how shallow my spear was even though I had SEEN it on video an still photos...until doing switch drills with Terry and feeling him grab my wrist and pull it down far far deeper in the water than I felt comfortable with.
Thanks, that really helps.

Trying it out on dryland, it seems to me that the shoulder problem comes from the degree of rotation of the arm in the shoulder socket at the time you bend the elbow. I think I avoid it because my shoulders are becoming horizontal as my recovering arm enters the water so my spearing arm's bending is favoured by the body rotation which is now turning towards the chest ie its natural rotation. That's what it feels like anyway but I have no video or 3rd party confirmation. It's what I'm aiming at but is this flawed (in theory)?

I do sometimes focus on relaxing the spearing arm so it bends at the embow, as if being broken by forward motion as well as by gravity. It would then sink naturally from a horizontal into the start of the catch. This began after noticing Shinji's spearing arm's wrist bend before anything else moved and to me it looked as if he was letting the drag this created bend his elbox for him into the catch.

I have never tried spearing deeper so maybe should try. I think there may be an issue in doing so for me and the psychological issues I seem to have with breathing. I may feel that a deeper spear will drive me underwater - as it's the techique I learned to achieve a duck-dive when I was very young!
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  #15  
Old 06-10-2013
dprevish dprevish is offline
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This sheds a little light on perhaps why sometimes my head goes under water after spearing. I notice that when I go to the fist gloves I don't spear quite as deeply and find air with one goggle. I know that with the gloves I'm swimming more level.
The other thing I'd noticed was that when I have tried leading with my elbow I almost always wind up with my head going too deep. There is a lot more to all this than meets the eye! It seems like I'm in a rut right now as I do something a little different in the pool every time.
Yesterday I really could have messed my learning up as I had to get out in open water and the 49 degree water necessitated my wet suit. When I swim in that my heels just float on the surface and my balance is totally different.
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  #16  
Old 06-10-2013
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajan View Post
Dear Coach David Shen,

When you say "hand facing back before stroking the entire arm back". Do you mean to say like the way in given below link. Please stop at 0.13 and 0.34. Do you mean like that type of hand position, where hand faces the feet at 0.13 and 0.34.
yes see how his hand is first pointed forward during the spear but BEFORE he strokes back, his hand drops down, relaxing the wrist and his palm is now facing to the rear, opposite of the direction of his motion - which is what i mean by "back" (and also "rear" now!). "front" is in the direction of motion, "back" is opposite his direction of motion.

you want to keep that palm perpendicular the whole time as the arm strokes back so you can get maximum catch on the water. the moment the palm is not perpendicular, you're letting water slip by which is not optimal.

most people when they are learning, begin by keeping the wrist stiff and then as the arm strokes back, the wrist is essentially tight and the whole arm becomes a big paddle, which unfortunately first sweeps down which presses your front up and makes your hips drop; then as it sweeps down it finally starts pushing water back, but then as it nears the lower torso/hip, it is now pushing water up, which again pushes the lower half of your body lower.

Work on first establishing your hand/palm perpendicular to the direction of travel, facing "back" or opposite the direction of motion; then focus on pushing water straight back, keeping the palm perpendicular the whole time as the arm is moving back - not down, not in a circular motion as described above, not wide and around - but straight back. This will maximize the propulsive value of your stroke back.
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  #17  
Old 06-10-2013
Rincewind Rincewind is offline
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Wow thanks for the video comparisons. Fiona spears really deep... I am actually surprized to see that, because elite swimmers all spear very shallow.
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  #18  
Old 06-11-2013
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
Wow thanks for the video comparisons. Fiona spears really deep... I am actually surprized to see that, because elite swimmers all spear very shallow.
I'm pretty sure she doesn't swim like that normally. We often demonstrate spears at various angles in our videos to show technique or a drill. I think we should find out the context of that video before we pass judgement on why she is spearing low.
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  #19  
Old 06-11-2013
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello CoachDavidShen,

Quote:
...I think we should find out the context of that video before we pass judgement on why she is spearing low.
I'd like to go a step further, because the "up-spear" of many elite swimmers should/could(?) not be measured by TI-terms for beginners or intermediate swimmers. Think this up-spear is integrated in a wave motion which gives Thorpe (for example) a better catch for a more armfull of water and (could be?) to get his arm pit over his (under water) pressure wake and swim it down on it's front side with a catch and push getting back a much more efficient whole stroke for cost of little more resistance in the spear.

But that's a state and art of swimming, not for the majority of us I argue...

Best regards,
Werner
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  #20  
Old 06-12-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
Of course I believe every word you say...

On the pictures below yours and Terry's spearing angle is parallel to the water surface. Only Shinji has a deeper angle. All shots from a non-breathing stroke.

I am wondering to what degree this deep spearing might just be a mental image?




The interaction I describe with Terry was in Feb of this year. The video still you posted is from April of this year. In that video length I was focusing on my recovery arm, not my spearing arm. Permanent changes are unlikely in 2 months without devoted singular focus in an otherwise established stroke. That's why we are all still posting here.

Also, FWIW, you cannot... no matter how much you think it seems like you can...determine horizontal angle from a view in which the camera is shooting through air first. Angles are incredibly deceptive when viewed through interface boundaries. For a fun experiment, go to an aquarium and find an animal like a small gator, a turtle or other similar creature t hat likes to keep it's eyes & nose above water while the body sinks below. Look at it from above and below the water and see how dramatically the angle changes.

The moral of the story is...if you want to look at spearing angle you must use an underwater side view.

Terry's spearing angle is not horizontal. it may be closer to horizontal that Shinji's is, but he still displays a basic element of fingers below wrist below elbow below shoulder.
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