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  #21  
Old 05-20-2013
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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That's an awesome video! Something about OW swim starts that are so exciting, even on video. Most swimmers look shoulder driven, but if I were to guess, you are the swimmer mostly in the middle of the frame breathing to your right on 2's. Looks about 65-70 spm too.

Southend Rowing Club - very cool. I heard they have an "out of towner" membership for folks that drift through on biz or otherwise? Sure like to get into that hot tub after a swim in AP, and of course love to do any of their organized swims across the bay too. I think Gary Emich ( and Joe Oaks) is at SouthEnd - Garys's taught me a ton about swimming and surviving in the SF Bay - he's one of my favorite people (and swimmers) on earth, terrific guy.

And yes, agree - same can be said for hip driven stroke, doesn't necessarily mean low tempo either

Stay in touch and let's do a swim soon!

Stuart

Last edited by CoachStuartMcDougal : 05-20-2013 at 06:36 AM.
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  #22  
Old 05-20-2013
swim2Bfree swim2Bfree is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
That's an awesome video! Something about OW swim starts that are so exciting, even on video. Most swimmers look shoulder driven, but if I were to guess, you are the swimmer mostly in the middle of the frame breathing to your right on 2's. Looks about 65-70 spm too.
Wow, nice guess! You got me.

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Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Southend Rowing Club - very cool. I heard they have an "out of towner" membership for folks that drift through on biz or otherwise?
They do, but you have to do a full year at the in-town rate before you're eligible for the out-of-town rate. You're welcome to use the facilities at the day rate ($6.50) - same with Dolphin Club.

Getting off topic now, I guess. Cheers.
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  #23  
Old 05-20-2013
cs10 cs10 is offline
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Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Who told you this secret? Footage of here are no where to be found on the web.

It's true though, she's the best possible 2b kicker in the whole world. That 2bk is simply astonishing.


From the best source . She said so herself in her book "Dangerous When Wet". She has a website that she sells it through. I got mine second hand through Amazon. Some interesting stories of colliding with a floating dead body in one race and the severe physical handicaps in her childhood that she had to overcome, and the spite of some of the males she beat (though I can't really believe that one ; I can't imagine any male having a fragile ego)

There is great multi angle views of her stroke on the SS "Catch Masterclass" dvd. I read somewhere on SS that Shinji had bought a copy.
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  #24  
Old 05-20-2013
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Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
.

It's true though, she's the best possible 2b kicker in the whole world. That 2bk is simply astonishing.


The irony is that she doesn't think she kicks well herself. Don't know why she would think this . Maybe because she's not as fast as some with a kickboard. It's absolutely perfectly integrated with her stroke.
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  #25  
Old 05-20-2013
cs10 cs10 is offline
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Originally Posted by swim2Bfree;39749



Here is video footage of Shelley at MIMS from the late-'80s:

[url
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyNTUuCIY4w&t=0m29s[/url]


A master at work. On a totally different level than a desperate race for the line in the last lap of an Olympic final.

I can only describe it as swimming like you REALLY mean it.
It tells of all the 10's of 1000's of hours of work that went into it.

Superficially it looks a very physical style but I think there is a lot of science in it and use of a redirection of momentum. Under water would tell the whole story. It looks like when a master musician closes his eyes and lets himself go and a masterpiece just pours out.
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  #26  
Old 05-20-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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and the spite of some of the males she beat (though I can't really believe that one ; I can't imagine any male having a fragile ego)
She'd do most of her male victim among the middle of the pack guys. I used to be assigned to one of them. Euhh well, we scored a few podiums, but very often we would finish 5 or 6th (guy). The recurring theme those days with these guys was: "are we in front of Shelley? How far in front Shelley is?"

As an aside, in the Pro crowd, she would cost you several hundred $$ when she passed you, as there are 2 bursaries system: 1 for per gender ranking and 1 for overall ranking.

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Originally Posted by cs10 View Post
There is great multi angle views of her stroke on the SS "Catch Masterclass" dvd. I read somewhere on SS that Shinji had bought a copy.
On of my favorite "actress" on this DVD. When I conference, I usually show various swimmers. Last time I was conferencing in front of 11-17yo folks. And so when I reached Shelley's footage, I ask them: "Do you think this swimmer is an elite? If she was swimming in public pool sessions, do you think she would be fast enough to swim in the middle lanes identified as fast lane?"

Most would answer NO. She could barely make it in AVG lanes LOL

As for her 2bk, yes she sees herself as a very poor kicker. She's relatively bad at kick sets. She trained in our University for a few months in 95. I saw her booking a endless set of 100m on 1:15, touching the wall at 1:06 1:07. But in kick sets she was not leading the lane.

However what makes her 2bk the best possible 2bk, is that (as you may know for having looked at the CMC-DVD), when you see here swimming from the front, underwater, you just can't see her feet (nor can water)!

@S2BFree, very nice smooth stroke. Conditions looked fun. Glad that I could see you swim. Feel bless to *know* about yourself that you're shoulder driven. As far as my own stroke, I have no clue! (LOL)

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 05-20-2013 at 03:35 PM.
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  #27  
Old 05-20-2013
swim2Bfree swim2Bfree is offline
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Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
@S2BFree, very nice smooth stroke. Conditions looked fun. Glad that I could see you swim. Feel bless to *know* about yourself that you're shoulder driven. As far as my own stroke, I have no clue! (LOL)
Thank you for the compliment. I don't believe I have much of a choice re: shoulder-drive vs. hip-drive. I have congenital defect in one of my hips, which prevents me from generating as much hip-drive power as others might. I'm also blessed with strong, sturdy shoulders.

My stroke works for my body. Terry's stroke works for his. That's all.
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  #28  
Old 05-21-2013
cs10 cs10 is offline
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Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
. Last time I was conferencing in front of 11-17yo folks. And so when I reached Shelley's footage, I ask them: "Do you think this swimmer is an elite? If she was swimming in public pool sessions, do you think she would be fast enough to swim in the middle lanes identified as fast lane?"

Most would answer NO. She could barely make it in AVG lanes L)


Camera angles can be very deceiving. In Shelly's demo it looks like the camera is following her along from above and there are no cross tiles directly below to give an indication of speed. It looks like a good set up to see a true picture of your style.

Maybe you should have got the 11-17's to bet with you on how much they would beat her by in a long OW race.

Some videos you see show a slightly slowed down view showing the aesthetics of the swimmers style then immediately cut to a low angle with the cameraman walking towards the swimmer and you see the floats on the lane markers whizzing by and think wow how can they go so fast with such an easy relaxed style.?

Then the Anna Karin Lundin video was like a work of art : A beautiful style in a nice setting with professional creative camera work.

Myself I'm not too sure about video . In everything I've done I've worked hard to develop body awareness and so far it seems transferable from one thing to another. I'm even a little scared I might loose some B/A if I take the easy way out. I guess the answer is a little at just the right time.
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  #29  
Old 05-21-2013
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Thanks Suzanne for those elaborate answers a few days ago .I've been doing a bit of experimenting and your answers were exactly what I needed. I have 2 walls of my shed lined with an array of surf and water craft to suit any ocean condition ( all human effort powered with no electronics) but until I found TI ,I had nearly forgotten the one that provides the most intimate contact with the ocean - My own body.

I now have a basic TI style pretty automatic and my main aim is to experience all the conditions the ocean can offer. Every thing else I have done has been a combo of feel and vision and now it's going to be almost completely feel. We do get a lot of extreme conditions here but mostly it's just difficult and tricky The surf is both inshore and offshore reefs and the small bay gets the left overs of the waves breaking on the outer reef crossed by wind waves from strong consistent sea breezes (often with long spells of 35 - 40 knots.),all undermined by a sometimes strong swirly current over some interesting underwater rock formations. Marine and Harbours won't allow a boat ramp.
Out to sea swells are closer together than most places, from a mix of directions often crossed by sizeable windswell and there are some tricky currents. The fishermen are a hardy crew who manage their bad backs and necks with the miraculous healing power of large amounts of beer. Boats are heavily braced and trade ins often end up in Tasmania in the Southern Ocean roaring 40's.
Even swimming a triangle in the bay in the sea breeze you get a large variety of conditions to challenge you.

I've felt from your advice the importance of keeping momentum rather than constantly regaining it. My main worry was that I was developing the habit of a quick extra flutter kick or rushed arm out to the side mid stroke to keep balance. I felt like this was the dumb aquatic version of sticking your hand out when you slip on land. Just by being aware of it I am already sensing it earlier and having time to react sooner and smoother without disrupting my stroke so much.

Rough water really makes swimming multi dimensional. I suppose there is no limit to the sensitivity you can develop (which is probably why you can look at the leaders of a race and think -that waters not too rough and then look at the tailenders and think - oh that water's rough).

I've been reading about the skills of the traditional Polynesian navigators. Mau Piailug , the last traditionally trained navigator , navigated the Hawaii - Tahiti return trip without instruments on the recreation of a traditional voyaging canoe. He watched over his student , Hawaiian Nainoa Thompson on a following journey. Mau only " slept" a few half hour spells a day on each 5 week leg. He had the ability to shut down most of his senses but keep his navigational sense awake. He would know exactly where he was on awakening having read the interplay of up to 5 swells plus the currents plus the seas. He would do the same on cloudy nights he could not see stars.
Nainoa was able to fulfil Mau's long held dream that he thought was impossible and returned Mau to his island of birth in the Caroline Group in a traditional voyaging canoe before he died.

Surely I can learn to feel a little wave hitting me from the side and not get knocked over.
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  #30  
Old 05-22-2013
naj naj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
That's an awesome video! Something about OW swim starts that are so exciting, even on video. Most swimmers look shoulder driven, but if I were to guess, you are the swimmer mostly in the middle of the frame breathing to your right on 2's. Looks about 65-70 spm too.

Southend Rowing Club - very cool. I heard they have an "out of towner" membership for folks that drift through on biz or otherwise? Sure like to get into that hot tub after a swim in AP, and of course love to do any of their organized swims across the bay too. I think Gary Emich ( and Joe Oaks) is at SouthEnd - Garys's taught me a ton about swimming and surviving in the SF Bay - he's one of my favorite people (and swimmers) on earth, terrific guy.

And yes, agree - same can be said for hip driven stroke, doesn't necessarily mean low tempo either

Stay in touch and let's do a swim soon!

Stuart
Hey Coach Stu remember swim2bfree ain't the only South Ender on this site! I've been in the bay year round since I first learned TI and, for that matter, learned to swim back in '08.

I enjoy what the bay throws at me each morning at 5:30am. In fact today we had a northwest wind which created big swells and lots of choppy water. When I'm in those conditions I concentrate on staying low in the water, gliding and using my hip drive to get me along.

Not gonna lie I'm not too fast, but I have strong endurance (I can go 2hrs in 52F/11C). I conserve a lot of energy, stay warm through yoga breathing and focus on just a couple of things while I'm out there. Rough conditions are without a doubt in my mind the best to train in for open water. All the better if you can go West of The Golden Gate Bridge and take on conditions out there on "bad" days, then your really ready for rough water!

Oh and BTW Coach Suzanne, I love to pilot kayaks in rough water. TI principles work well when your paddling up he face of a four ft wave in the ocean :-)

Keep Swimming!
Naji

PS Coach Stuart drop me a line next time your in town and we'll go out together. Swim2bfree, I'll see you on the beach!
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