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  #1  
Old 05-14-2013
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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haschu33
Default A question about timing (again) ...

I tried to swim with faster stroke rates after having spent a lot of time at appr. 1.4 s per stroke for imprinting good stroke habits.

I did a set with the TT, startet at 1.10 (appr. 54 str/min) and decremented the time by 0.02 down to 0.74 (appr. 80 str/min).
I had a quite large range of SPL, from 17 to 23. I don't think that my balance and streamlining and stroke pattern have such a great range, I think this is because of timing, mainly when to start the catch. The higher the rate the earlier the catch had to start.

I noticed already before that there are certain stroke rates where swimming is easier for me, and some where it is more difficult. E.g. when I get faster than 1.10 it usually gets easier, and the SPL is lower, although to swim with faster rates takes a lot more energy.

I found the following:
I used the fewest strokes at 1.06 and at 0.96. In between the SPL was clearly higher. The best range - to my surprise - was between 0.82 and 0.78 which in fact is really really fast for me. The SPL at 0.80 was 18 and at 0.82 and 0.78 it was 19, it was lower than at 1.0 or 1.10, shocking almost. At 0.76 the SPL was 23 and at 0.74 I was done...

So, my question is: do you also have stroke rates where it feels naturally easier to swim with a low SPL, and those where it is more difficult? Or is it all always consistent?

And, my impression is that higher stroke rates depend highly on a good timing and do not excuse a timing that is even a little bit off. Is that a common experience?


BTW, just to have it mentioned: swimming at faster rates and still enjoying some glide is great fun...
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  #2  
Old 05-15-2013
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
I tried to swim with faster stroke rates after having spent a lot of time at appr. 1.4 s per stroke for imprinting good stroke habits.

I did a set with the TT, startet at 1.10 (appr. 54 str/min) and decremented the time by 0.02 down to 0.74 (appr. 80 str/min).
I had a quite large range of SPL, from 17 to 23. I don't think that my balance and streamlining and stroke pattern have such a great range, I think this is because of timing, mainly when to start the catch. The higher the rate the earlier the catch had to start.

I noticed already before that there are certain stroke rates where swimming is easier for me, and some where it is more difficult. E.g. when I get faster than 1.10 it usually gets easier, and the SPL is lower, although to swim with faster rates takes a lot more energy.

I found the following:
I used the fewest strokes at 1.06 and at 0.96. In between the SPL was clearly higher. The best range - to my surprise - was between 0.82 and 0.78 which in fact is really really fast for me. The SPL at 0.80 was 18 and at 0.82 and 0.78 it was 19, it was lower than at 1.0 or 1.10, shocking almost. At 0.76 the SPL was 23 and at 0.74 I was done...

So, my question is: do you also have stroke rates where it feels naturally easier to swim with a low SPL, and those where it is more difficult? Or is it all always consistent?

And, my impression is that higher stroke rates depend highly on a good timing and do not excuse a timing that is even a little bit off. Is that a common experience?


BTW, just to have it mentioned: swimming at faster rates and still enjoying some glide is great fun...
I recognize everything you have written in my swim times.
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  #3  
Old 05-15-2013
wie wie is offline
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I know something similar from running:
There are certain speeds where you have a slightly lower HR compared to other higher and lower times.
E.g. when I run very slow at 5:55 per km I have a HR of 75-76%. When I run slightly faster, 5:45, I have a HR of about 74% consistently. I think there are what I would call "natural speeds" at which everything fits together: breathing, leg length, metabolism ...
There are "body resonances" where everything fits best with respect to your body proportions.
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  #4  
Old 05-15-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
So, my question is: do you also have stroke rates where it feels naturally easier to swim with a low SPL, and those where it is more difficult? Or is it all always consistent?

And, my impression is that higher stroke rates depend highly on a good timing and do not excuse a timing that is even a little bit off. Is that a common experience?


BTW, just to have it mentioned: swimming at faster rates and still enjoying some glide is great fun...
Question 1: Over time I've developed more and more consistency in that lower rates have higher spls and vice versa. To not increase SPL at a slow rate takes a lot of balance, which I'm good at. I've seen however in many students that have good technique taht as rate continues to get faster, their SPL continues to drop. They hit a groove in an area that they havn't explored before, and their mechanics/timing/balance are good enough it holds together for awhile. Usualy this takes more energy too and is sustainable for shorter repeats and not longer ones.

What you did is a perfect way to explore your swimmign more. Now add distance to the experiment. take the rates that felt great and do 50-100-150-200 (assuming your longer term goals are distance oriented)

Q2: yes but many folks will not recognize that or care, and SPL will jump quickly
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Coach of 4 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
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  #5  
Old 05-15-2013
tpamperin tpamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
The higher the rate the earlier the catch had to start.
I just did my first TT practice in a long time today and was thinking this same thing by the end. Which raises a question for me:

I'm finding that I have to rotate fairly far before I can comfortably move my lead arm into an EVF position for the pull. The 2 demands (waiting for adequate rotation vs. starting the catch earlier) seem contradictory.

Anyone have any thougts about that?

Tom
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  #6  
Old 05-16-2013
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Andy, what happened to your sub 1.20/50 project from last year? Your footer says 1.22 ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Question 1: Over time I've developed more and more consistency in that lower rates have higher spls and vice versa.
I thought it is the other way around: higher rates, lower SPL. Where higher rates are those with a lower number when taking the TT times. So one stroke per 1.0 sec is a higher rate than one stroke/1.3 s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
... assuming your longer term goals are distance oriented
My long term goals are
a) being able to swim with a SPL of around 18 at any rate
b) being able to sustain a rate of 1.1 or 1.0 (or faster) at longer distances (>=1000m).


Quote:
Originally Posted by tpamperin View Post
...

I'm finding that I have to rotate fairly far before I can comfortably move my lead arm into an EVF position for the pull. The 2 demands (waiting for adequate rotation vs. starting the catch earlier) seem contradictory.

Anyone have any thougts about that?

Tom
I don't understand that. I don't see how the EVF is dependent on rotation? In fact I think you rotate a little less when swimming at faster rates. But for me there is definitively no question of waiting for the rotation to be finished. Actually the rotation finishes by reaching the spearing target, no?

Last edited by haschu33 : 05-16-2013 at 07:23 AM.
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  #7  
Old 05-16-2013
tpamperin tpamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
I don't understand that. I don't see how the EVF is dependent on rotation? In fact I think you rotate a little less when swimming at faster rates. But for me there is definitively no question of waiting for the rotation to be finished. Actually the rotation finishes by reaching the spearing target, no?
You're probably right that EVF is not dependent on rotation--perhaps what is happening is that I've built a habit I didn't need to build.

But try this: with your feet and body pointing straight ahead, raise your right arm straight up from the shoulder (palm facing forward) and then, keeping the upper arm motionless, move your forearm into an EVF position. For me, that's pretty hard to do. (Maybe an even wider catch might help? I'll try that).

Now try it again, but this time, AFTER raising your right arm straight up, turn your feet and body 40-45 degrees to the right (WITHOUT letting the arm turn to follow it) before you move into an EVF position. For me, that's MUCH easier and more comfortable--and I'm guessing it might be safer for your shoulder.

Which suggests that there is a moment during the rotation (pretty far into it) where it suddenly becomes easy to achieve the EVF position, and the forearm kind of "falls away" without straining the shoulder.

What do you all make of this? If I'm right that it's advantageous to wait until rotation has already begun before moving to EVF, then how do you combine that with higher stroke rates? How do you start the catch earlier if you have to wait for a certain degree of body rotation? Or am I totally on the wrong track here?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this. Best,

Tom
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  #8  
Old 05-17-2013
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
Andy, what happened to your sub 1.20/50 project from last year? Your footer says 1.22 ?

My swimming goals are on hold until I move. I'm swimming twice a week but the pool is so busy I can only do 25-50m without catching up a train of other swimmers. I have been swimming some lower SPL lengths again lately

I've also got a 5K wet suit comp next week that I haven't managed to find any training time/environment for so it will be a finishing challenge instead of a race, but looking forward to it all the same.
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  #9  
Old 01-08-2014
splashingpat splashingpat is offline
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Default Splash"N"pat

I miss U guys!
It was FUN when I was on the FORUM! but
I been gone so long...anyOne remember me?
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  #10  
Old 01-17-2014
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splashingpat View Post
I miss U guys!
It was FUN when I was on the FORUM! but
I been gone so long...anyOne remember me?
You were pretty unforgettable, Pat! ;-)


Bob
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