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  #61  
Old 02-05-2011
borate borate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
What sort of impression do we give to not just other women, but to visitors that Terry & Total Immersion have worked & campaigned for 20 years plus to become familiar with TI and its products?
I.M.H.O. these forums should be gender-neutral.
Those who post ad hominem attacks, obsess over minutiae or wander seriously off-topic should be asked politely and privately by the moderator to take their debate private.
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  #62  
Old 02-05-2011
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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I think there's a case to be made for turning a blind eye to the silliness that occasionally breaks out. In the four years or so that I have visited this forum and the previous incarnation there has been very little unpleasantness and most discussion has been very civil and restricted to swimming.

I can remember an outbreak of outrage when someone jokingly referred to me as "stinking English" for using some long word or other and of course I wasn't in the least offended, being Irish, and resident in Wales, where the English are treated with (on the whole) friendly mockery, just as they treat the Welsh, Scots and Irish. Someone else took umbrage on my behalf, though, and things got a bit heated for a while.

Whenever anyone makes a joke or uses irony online he or she should probably flag it with big JOKE or IRONY markers.

This forum is an oasis of civilization and civility compared with some, such as youtube, which seems to be populated with illiterate or semi-literate teenage twerps (I hope nobody here is a youtube devotee and a semi-literate twerp (JOKE)). In spite of it all youtube is very valuable for swimming videos and a whole lot more.
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  #63  
Old 02-05-2011
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borate View Post
...Those who post ad hominem attacks, obsess over minutiae or wander seriously off-topic should be asked politely and privately by the moderator to take their debate private.
Yes, that is a good point. I know that from other non-TI forums, and moderators do really help. When asking doesn't help, they can simply delete a post. Helsp and cures.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
..."stinking English" ...
* IRONY MODE ON *
* JOKE MODE ON *
"stinking English" - what was the language again this is expressed in...
* JOKE MODE OFF *
* IRONY MODE OFF *

Hang on in there... ;-)
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  #64  
Old 02-05-2011
ames ames is offline
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ames
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
So I was trying to describe this thread to a friend of mine, along with the "other" thread currently labeled a d**k swinging contest.

She just about burst her gut laughing...she said, "WHAT???? THIS IS A SWIMMING FORUM, RIGHT?"

From an outsiders perspective, you can see how absurd many of the posts on here can be. What sort of impression do we give to not just other women, but to visitors that Terry & Total Immersion have worked & campaigned for 20 years plus to become familiar with TI and it's products?

We owe it to our Chief Executive Optimist to knock off the nonsense.
Amen. I also recently described this thread to a friend and how I thought it was ironic that a discussion about increasing women's input on the forum turned into exactly the kind of thing that turns a lot of women off: conflict, arguing about minutiae, name-calling, arrogance, ego-feeding... I have thought of weighing in with some jabs of my own, but feel it would be disrespectful to Terry and all the folks behind this forum. It's a shame to see it go down this path, since in the past it has always been such a positive and supportive place to come to for help and to help out others and just for sharing experiences on the TI journey. Let's hope we can get back on track.
ames
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  #65  
Old 02-05-2011
boken boken is offline
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I think it was a nice gesture to suggest a women's-only side but I'm not particularly comfortable about that notion. I perhaps would if swimming weren't already a reasonably well-mixed sport. But a potential benefit of such a thing could be for women who are a bit too shy or modest to post video of themselves. It's hard enough being a learner, even harder when you have to show yourself flopping through the pool mostly naked. The unfortunate thing would be that they'd miss the input from the guys. But getting half input is better than not posting and getting any at all. This is speculation though, because I've already posted video and will do so again.

If I may suggest a different theme, might it be nice to have a thread (just like we have Freestyle, Links and References, etc.) that is just for discussing theory? It would be a place for folks to crunch calculations, share pertinent research, and pose questions about swimming dynamics or its aspects. Especially those topics that might not make anybody a better swimmer (for now) but would satisfy the desire to understand what exactly's going on when we swim. Theory comes up enough that it might be worth it.

Regarding moderation: that's actually a pretty big thing to ask of Terry or any other TI staff. How would you feel if your post was moderated and you didn't think it should have been? Or even worse, your post was scrubbed but somebody else's wasn't? The moderator would wear a big fat bullseye for blame. It can be done, and done well, but it's not as easy as you might think.
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  #66  
Old 02-06-2011
CoachEricDeSanto CoachEricDeSanto is offline
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Thank you Boken. I also don't think it is a perfect solution. I am just trying to think of ways we can create a safe space for those who are not comfortable posting here. I absolutely know from my high school teaching experience that the input from the quiet ones is often incredibly insightful. And I am sure there are guys on this forum who feel bashful about posting as well.

Maybe it would be best to make it clear that we coaches love emails from swimmers and regularly exchange ideas that way. This is a safe space for anyone to ask questions and, as Terry often does, the email exchanges can be brought to the general forum when both parties agree.

Also, note that most of us are open to private messages through this forum. That would be a safe space.

Both of these options would limit the public nature of the forum. But if that public nature is part of the resistence, then it might help.
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  #67  
Old 02-06-2011
Rhoda Rhoda is offline
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One of the things that I've always thought was special about the T.I. forums was the welcoming attitude to beginners. On many other swim forums, they're treated dismissively at best, either told to "just join a master's swim club" or advised to "keep at it, it will eventually get easier as you get fitter". The attitude is that one should suffer through and pay one's dues.

In fact, I've directed people to this forum when they've expressed frustration at other forums.

This is a gender neutral thing, a beginner is fumbling around feeling out of place whatever his/her gender. It's important to realize how out of place someone can feel when entering a new and unfamiliar place, and how easily even the most self confident person can be intimidated in such a situation.

As for me, I'm a very pragmatic person. I don't care about minutia, I just want simple explanations about what works and what doesn't. Perhaps it's my blue-collar background, perhaps it's working in drafting offices for engineering firms for decades. Is this a female thing? I don't know. I miss Julie's posts, because like me, she enjoyed swimming for it's own sake. I don't think that's an exclusively female thing either. Terry has often written very poetically of open water swimming.

Internet forums in general tend to attract more men than women. The only exceptions I've ever found were sewing forums, but even they have male posters.

So, to make a long-winded post conclude... I don't know what the answer is to attracting more female participants.
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  #68  
Old 02-06-2011
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
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Mike from NS
Default I couldn't agree with you more Rhoda!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhoda View Post
One of the things that I've always thought was special about the T.I. forums was the welcoming attitude to beginners. On many other swim forums, they're treated dismissively at best, either told to "just join a master's swim club" or advised to "keep at it, it will eventually get easier as you get fitter". The attitude is that one should suffer through and pay one's dues.
.............
I miss Julie's posts, because like me, she enjoyed swimming for it's own sake. I don't think that's an exclusively female thing either. Terry has often written very poetically of open water swimming.
I was honored with several helpful replies from you, Pat and Julie when I asked many "dumb" questions. Your post says it all and I agree 100% with you. All were here with the interests to share successes and offer help if requested. (Many have come and gone. I often wonder if Russell gave up swimming as he and I seemed to be at the same beginner's level; but he was in house building stage which was a distraction for him.)

Mike
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If you're not swimming; then you should be skiing......
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  #69  
Old 02-06-2011
splashingpat splashingpat is offline
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splashingpat
Default how do babies and kids learn to swim, without all the details

[quote=Mike from NS;16994]I was honored with several helpful replies
from you, Pat and Julie when I asked many "dumb" questions.

Your post says it all and I agree 100% with you.
All were here with the interests to share successes and offer help if requested. (Many have come and gone.

I often wonder if Russell gave up swimming as
he and I seemed to be at the same beginner's level;
but he was in house building stage which was a distraction for him.)
************************************************** ***************
woman ...ya got to love them
appreciate them and deal with them too!

I wonder about Russell too
He researched, posted, and help me learn about this site!, but I learn from students!
and just maybe the guy on this site has learned a lot from HIS students!

I have,
Pat
Keep it Up, guys

I do love some of you! and
I do find some of you well
You are Improving (like the rest of us!)

unconditional love,
or is it?
Hi Grant

the value of this forum
:)
it does good!
without the voice of women but
husbands have to have them if
they want children! go figure!

Last edited by splashingpat : 02-08-2011 at 10:22 PM.
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  #70  
Old 02-08-2011
cgoodrum cgoodrum is offline
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cgoodrum
Default Second Thoughts...from a Female who attended a Maho Camp

“There is a great deal of difference between loss, change and transformation. A loss is a step backward. A change is an opportunity. Transformation is a step forward. The common denominator of these three realities is the fact that one must give up something. It is possible for both loss and change to lead to transformation. But it is not possible for transformation to occur unless something is lost and something is changed.” ~Anthony Padavano

I attended the TI 2011 Maho Bay Open Water Swim Camp for Women in January. It was clearly a life-changing event for me and now represents a powerful transformation that could not have occurred without external influence from the TI coaches, the location, and the phenomenal group of camp participants.

Recent past: I experienced a series of unfortunate events in the four months prior to camp that I clearly interpreted as omens “that I should not attend.” However, because I’d made a commitment to do it, a commitment to attend/ participate with a dear friend, I did the only thing that made sense: I succumbed to “second thoughts” and cancelled my swim participation but agreed to attend and spectate.

My loss: I have viewed open water as an enemy for the past 37 years. I refused to “go with the flow” –the result of a sailing accident that occurred during my teens. For 37 years, I clung to excuses as to why I didn’t swim, couldn’t swim, or wouldn’t wade beyond my knees. My fear of open water was far greater than I can begin to convey. My fear represented a huge step away from something I used to love doing as a child.

My change: I recognized along the way that I was becoming influenced by external factors. My husband had returned to swimming and through influence by others, had moved to training for triathlon. I sat on the sidelines for seven years and watched his events, open water swims, and finally decided that I too needed to complete a triathlon event -- to celebrate my 50th. This challenge presented a needed opportunity to overcome fear and embrace real change; and the fact that I recognized it as such was a huge part of the struggle toward change.

My introduction to swimming involved a month of flailing about at our local pool and was quickly followed by a Total Immersion weekend workshop with Dave Cameron. I can’t say enough about Dave or the TI method. It’s still hard for me to believe that a single weekend provided the skills to train for a 250M pool swim and a 750M lake swim. (Not great distances to anyone who is a “swimmer” but clearly monumental distances for me.)

The transformation: I had much more powerful "second thoughts" before arriving in Maho. I envisioned all the women campers to be dolphin pros, the coaches unforgiving (yes—whatever self-doubt thinking it took to minimize my ability to participate). I had firmly decided upon arrival that I would merely watch and contemplate my own ability to return in 2012. Besides, I hadn’t even been in a pool for four months!!

I’m still not sure how I ended up in the water on the first day of camp, but I know it had everything to do with my amazing roommate, one incredible Camp Director, Celeste St. Pierre, and the full cast of campers and coaches. After my initial 1.5hr immersion, I recognized how truly wonderful and supportive the entire coaching staff was and I felt accepted by the fantastic group of women I had joined.

Women who were unknowns quickly became friends through this thing called swimming!! The smiles, cheers, pats, and partner swims were just some of the elements that quickly moved me from feeling that I couldn’t do it to believing that I could do it and I felt the twinges of wanting to go further. The TI week transformed my thoughts and erased my doubts; it was a liberating and joyous experience.

YES, it was a completely amazing experience! (Special thanks to Alice for allowing me opportuntity to become aware of the effortless feeling that occurs during synchronized swims at close distance!)

The best swimmers at our camp accepted those of us who wanted to be like them and instead of maximizing our differences they ate with us, did drills with us, and never made us feel left behind. I felt most comfortable swimming with a pod/group in the beginning and then ultimately learned to be comfortable while swimming from buoy to buoy (with nearby support and coaching) while otherwise alone. The traumatic fear had subsided, and the joy began to come more often with each inhale, exhale, or stroke.

Total Immersion Swimming took me from totally terrified to confident. A heartfelt THANK YOU to the entire team at Total Immersion.

My "second thoughts" have disappeared and I am looking forward to going back to Maho next year.

~Cat that now loves water
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