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  #11  
Old 03-18-2018
CoachJohnnyWiden's Avatar
CoachJohnnyWiden CoachJohnnyWiden is offline
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CoachJohnnyWiden
Default Your TI story, please

Hi david1swe!

Watching your videos I would like to ask you what your TI story is like? Of what I can see there is very little TI technique in your swimming.

TI is designed to put a minimum of stress to your body. If I were you I would back off and start or restart with the basics of TI.

So tell us your TI story and we can help you with advices from there.

PS. When looking for possible causes of shoulder problems it is also important to see what happens above the water. Bad arm recovery could be a cause.
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  #12  
Old 03-18-2018
david1swe
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachJohnnyWiden View Post
Hi david1swe!

Watching your videos I would like to ask you what your TI story is like? Of what I can see there is very little TI technique in your swimming.

TI is designed to put a minimum of stress to your body. If I were you I would back off and start or restart with the basics of TI.

So tell us your TI story and we can help you with advices from there.

PS. When looking for possible causes of shoulder problems it is also important to see what happens above the water. Bad arm recovery could be a cause.
Hi Johnny!

First and foremost I would say I'm a swimmer, not subscribing to any school in particular.
I did a beginners course in crawl a year ago. It was helpful to me getting some understanding of the basics, being able to swim more than 100m without getting totally exhausted. After then I did follow up "swim in group"... it was helpful too, but I didn't like all of it. For example an exercise where we were suppose to swim without any kicks, feet fixated to disable kicking, it didn't work at all for me. My feet just fell down to the bottom after a couple of meters. I asked the coach for advice and he told me just to increase the frequency of my arm pulls, but to myself I thought it simply has to be other ways.
And so I started to search the Internet more. Found the Total Immersion site among others. The Shinji Takeuchi channel on youtube on which videos I watched several times. Went to the pool by myself and did some balancing exercises, and experimenting with my stroke. Quite soon I was able to swim without any leg kick at all even with a rather low arm pull frequency.
This year I've just swum by myself, finding advice from different sources, but not joining any school in particular. I've read some about total immersion and the philosophy behind it, which I've found interesting. But I kind of prefer it like "inspiration" rather than "instruction".
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  #13  
Old 03-18-2018
david1swe
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
There's definitely some asymmetry in your spearing, probably due to breathing only on one side. I would try swimming one length breathing right and the length back breathing left. That way you get to breath every second stroke but you can compare what you are doing on both sides. You may also be raising your head a little when you breath, but the first thing I would work on is breathing on different sides on alternating lengths and comparing what you are doing with your spear in each direction.

You may be pushing down with the opposite arm when you role to breath in order to raise your head. Not sure if that is what might be hurting your shoulder?

Good luck!
Yeah, been thinking so myself too. I have practicing some breathing left side, which works OK. Can't say I've felt less discomfort then, but hard to tell. Anyway, should help getting a more symmetric stroke.
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  #14  
Old 03-18-2018
Streak Streak is offline
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Lots of good advice here.
You're swimming on nice wide tracks.
What I am noticing is that you have a bit of a windmill stroke, left arm forward while right arm is back, as a result your hips drop. Be a bit more patient with your lead hand, wait until the wrist of the recovery hand just enters the water before commencing your pull phase. This will tend more towards front quadrant swimming which has really helped in my progression.
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  #15  
Old 03-19-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david1swe View Post
Hello everyone,

Thought I'd try this out. I've been practicing swimming quite intensive last year, usually swim 4-6 times a week, and now do the front crawl 1500m in slightly less than 25m. Last weeks I've been struggling a bit, and also been bothered by vague discomfort/ache in the left upper arm, so I decided to post this and see if anyone here has any advice.
Ever since I started swimming more seriously about a year ago I've had some trouble with the upper left arm from time to time. Not painful, but rather like a vague discomfort or slight ache every now and then. Maybe someone can see some issue in my technique that may cause this?
Oddly when I watch these clips it seems like my left arm technique is better than the right arm technique, as I'm bending my palm more on the right arm...but I don't know.

Any tips to improve technique in any aspect would be welcome.

Here are two clips:

https://youtu.be/5K7ESmAWzvo - underwater, side angle, left and right
https://youtu.be/f5Mlecojj9c - underwater, angle from front and below
If you look at your 2nd video towards the end with the head on view
your right hand is entering above the centre of your head and sweeping out to the right with a big sweep and your left hand / arm seems to be entering wide and pusing down and out to support the breath

A correction tecnique you can try is to tap each shoulder tip with your thumbs as your hand reach shoulder height during recovery

then shoot them out from there at 45 deg angle to entry
because your are rotated when you do this as you roll through flat the arms will become aligned in front of your shoulders

the drill i called shoulder taps or triple touch switch / 123 tap etc

This should get you more symetrical with hand entry
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  #16  
Old 03-20-2018
IngeA IngeA is offline
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The shoulder tap or zipper drill are the only two drills where I ALWAYS had problems with my shoulder. After my experiences I would not recommend that. Both drills lead to a stacked shoulder and can cause an impingement syndrome. I think that's exactly why Coach Jonny liked to have a over water video: to see if the arm swing is wide or if the shoulder is stuck.

But the high spear and early pressing with out stretched arm really can lead to shoulder problems.
So spearing a bit deeper and avoiding an early press can be helpful.

LG Inge

Last edited by IngeA : 03-20-2018 at 06:14 AM.
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  #17  
Old 03-20-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IngeA View Post
The shoulder tap or zipper drill are the only two drills where I ALWAYS had problems with my shoulder. After my experiences I would not recommend that. Both drills lead to a stacked shoulder and can cause an impingement syndrome. I think that's exactly why Coach Jonny liked to have a over water video: to see if the arm swing is wide or if the shoulder is stuck.

But the high spear and early pressing with out stretched arm really can lead to shoulder problems.
So spearing a bit deeper and avoiding an early press can be helpful.

LG Inge
What do you think of this sharkfin video:

https://youtu.be/-tl_tBzKmsA

Now at first glance it would seem to scream "stacked" / impingement / recovering on top of or behind the body etc

but look again, as the sharkfin is drawn up the side of the body the elbow is indeed on top of the bodyline but it never goes above shoulder height, before reaching shoulder height it is launched outwards at a 45 degree angle to entry point

i (like you) had never been able to do H E Recovery without impingement but i've started devoting time to it and it is much cleaner and more direct than the round the side semi strsight arm i was using with its lateral hit n miss entries.

I have been doing sharkfin with the thumb coming up the nipple line ie just in front of the scapular plane which when rotated to almost 90 keeps the upoer arm well in front of the back plane, launch out 45 degrees to entry from armpit hieight.

i have also been studying popov kayak timing and i have found that as you draw the hand up the side of the body you can gain extra rotation on the way up to the armpit which peaks momentarilly at almost 90 deg before then decreasing as the arm shoots for entry, so you get a smooth exit about 45 deg rotation which peaks at 90 degrees at apex of recovery (thumb at armpit) then decreases back down to 45 degrees for entry

what you think?
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  #18  
Old 03-20-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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I have found that impingment can come from travelling straight on to entry once the hand reaches the armpit, that video and my trial and errors seem to avoid that by shooting out at 45degrees to entry from the armpit, so far it has worked for me
And i may have solved my neverending question of how to do a H E Recovery whilst swimming with a fast turnover and less rotation.
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  #19  
Old 03-20-2018
IngeA IngeA is offline
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IngeA
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In the sharkfin exercise the elbow is behind the middle body line pointing backwards. The arm has a strong inner rotation at the shoulder. The body is rotated to nearly 90 degrees.
Yes, you can't impinge the tendon of the supraspinatus muscle like that because you don't elevate the arm above the shoulder level.
But swimming in whole stroke you can't swing the arm easily forward either because of the restricted movement. You have to get over the stacked point somehow and that's the point where the shoulder can be injured.
And also you can't rotate the body so far in swimming whole stroke.
It's a nice exercise to play with, but nothing to fix problems in whole stroke.

I also spent much time optimising the recovery. I had to, if I wanted continue swimming. I never had a nearly stretched arm. The best way for me is exactly the recovering of TI: a wide elbow swing and letting the forearm and hand relaxed until it's time to spear just when the hand passed the head.

I do not look many swimming videos, but as far as I have seen Popov also had a rather wide recovery und his elbows were not behind the level of his back. He didn't swing the whole arm in a wide bow, he swung the elbow in a wide bow, letting the forearm and hand relaxed. So that's not very different from what TI teaches, is it?

Best regards

Inge
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  #20  
Old 03-20-2018
CoachJohnnyWiden's Avatar
CoachJohnnyWiden CoachJohnnyWiden is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Luleň, Sweden
Posts: 19
CoachJohnnyWiden
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by david1swe View Post
Hi Johnny!
First and foremost I would say I'm a swimmer, not subscribing to any school in particular.
I did a beginners course in crawl a year ago. It was helpful to me getting some understanding of the basics, being able to swim more than 100m without getting totally exhausted. After then I did follow up "swim in group"... it was helpful too, but I didn't like all of it. For example an exercise where we were suppose to swim without any kicks, feet fixated to disable kicking, it didn't work at all for me. My feet just fell down to the bottom after a couple of meters. I asked the coach for advice and he told me just to increase the frequency of my arm pulls, but to myself I thought it simply has to be other ways.
And so I started to search the Internet more. Found the Total Immersion site among others. The Shinji Takeuchi channel on youtube on which videos I watched several times. Went to the pool by myself and did some balancing exercises, and experimenting with my stroke. Quite soon I was able to swim without any leg kick at all even with a rather low arm pull frequency.
This year I've just swum by myself, finding advice from different sources, but not joining any school in particular. I've read some about total immersion and the philosophy behind it, which I've found interesting. But I kind of prefer it like "inspiration" rather than "instruction".
Hi david1swe!

It’s all about hydro dynamics. Minimizing drag to be able to let the energy used send you forward as much as possible. This is done by being balanced and streamlined in the water. This is unnatural to us humans, who are design to live on dry land, and has to be learned. The natural behaviour is to try to get the head as high as possible, wave with your arms and kick with your legs.

Opposed to traditional swimming where the body is split into an arm department and a leg department, TI sees the body as one unit where the arms and legs are synchronized in a whole body swimming.

The difference between the two is very well exemplified in this video
https://youtu.be/_FrSTJLN_CY
Where lots of energy is wasted due to intensive kicking, with very little forward locomotion. The creation of all bubbles will also spend energy and for nothing. By the way, watch your own bubbles in your videos.

The TI idea is to imprint the movements in muscle memory, so even when you are tired, the right drag minimizing movements are used. See how this imprinting works:
https://youtu.be/f2O6mQkFiiw

Thus, all drills we are using are preparation to these movements. The drills are used to get the right feeling and then whole stroke is to be performed with this feeling. By using various focal points, that focus on one thing at a time, the movements imprints in muscle memory become natural. Every other movements, e.g., in your old swimming, will postpone the imprinting.

We have the following progress
1) Unconscious incompetence - you're doing it wrong, but don't realize it
2) Conscious incompetence - you're still doing it wrong, but realize it
3) Conscious competence - you're doing it right, but have to think about it all the time to do it right
4) Unconscious competence - you can do it right without constantly thinking about it

To be in 4) is the goal.

My suggestion is that you get inspired by the downloadable e-book bundle Ultra Efficient Freestyle aka 1.0 Effortless Endurance Self-Coaching Course
http://www.totalimmersion.net/store/...l#.WrFazZPwaL7

The very best way, however is to let a TI coach inspire you
http://www.totalimmersion.net/get-coached/find-a-coach

Either way will surely change your swimming to take better care of your shoulders and I promise you that swimming will be much more interesting for you.

Next step is to focus on propulsion where the traditional swimming mantra “No pain, no gain!” is changed to “No brain, no gain!” by using the principles of deliberate practice.

Good luck!

Last edited by CoachJohnnyWiden : 03-20-2018 at 08:03 PM.
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