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  #11  
Old 01-25-2015
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Now that... truly depends on whether one wants to book it real fast or not. For example, given neutral conditions (not favorable, not dis-favorable), achieving 5hfat (about 1:30/100m) would require, from the little bits I know of Shinji, a volume of 20k/week for at least 16weeks. In a pool, marathoners often time trial over 25k, which is usually done below 6h without too much effort. You need some of these long time trials as well to "optimize" the result over a marathon. But then, not everyone dives in at the start to swim their maximum best time. If just finishing the event is the main goal, one could live on a 10k/week diet and still enjoy the venture.
Thanks Charles. Well, with these numbers in mind, Terry's preparation for the MIMS (45.8 km) in 2002 sounds even more impressive: according to what he reports in the yellow book and in the new book, for 4 months he only swam 5 hours and 15000 yards per week (he swam even less before, and I read somewhere in this forum that he hardly ever trained with repetitions longer than 300m). He finally completed the 45.8 km in 8h53', ie with an avg pace of 1:09/100m (there had to be positive currents I suppose, so it's hard to estimate which pace he held in absence of currents). Anyway it's so impressive how somebody can complete 45km with only 5 hours and 15000 yards per week, isn't it?

I wouldn't be surprised if Shinji is doing just 10k/week (as per your second hypothesis) and finish with a fast time anyway...
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  #12  
Old 01-25-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Sclim,

That's a question for Shinji whether he can sustain 9 strokes in 20m (25m -5m push) for longer distances. In the 9 stroke video he's swimming at 1.8 sec/stroke tempo. That translates to a 1:21/100m pace (without walls), e.g. 9 x 1.8 x 5 = 1:21 100m pace.

His 12 stroke viral video, Shinji's swimming at 1.35 sec/stroke tempo that translates to 1:21 100m pace, e.g. 12 x 1.35 x 5 = 1:21. Both (9 & 12 SPL) put him roughly at a 20 min 1500m swim provided he could sustain that tempo and maintain stroke length.

I believe Shinji's open water 'sustainable' SPL and tempo is 15 SPL at 1.0 sec/stroke tempo; that translates to 18:45 1500m, e.g. 15 x 1.0 x 5 = 1:15 100m pace (x 15 = 18:45).

Regardless of the athlete, swimmer, runner, cyclist, hockey, basketball, soccer, etc - mastery makes it looks so easy, movement economy. This is the toughest perception to shift to for swimmers trained in conventional, popular methods of more yards, harder sets, faster turnover can only make you faster.

I love math, physics AND swimming :-)

Stuart
What I want to confirm, though, despite it looking so easy for him, he really is working hard, right? At the end of a maxed 5k swim, say, whether he is going at the equivalent at 12 or 15 spl (25m pool) he is going as hard as he can, so his heart rate is up, his shoulder and core muscles are fatigued, and he can't go any faster, right? Like I would be at the end of a half marathon run?
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  #13  
Old 01-26-2015
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Hi Sclim,

I can't answer for Shinji .... given I swim at a similar tempo (1.05) but shorter stroke length, I'm closer to a 24 min mile; Shinji close to 20 min mile. I never feel physically fatigued at the end of a 10k swim, never get above zone-3 and stay mostly in zone-2. In running or cycling, this would be the same as "conversational pace". The most difficult thing in the longer distance swims is keeping razor sharp focus, not allowing my mind to drift, especially after swimming 2hrs or more. I suspect similar for Shinji, hr rate in low zones, remaining focused maintaining balance and slippery streamline - and his incredible stroke length. Shinji is *the* representative of 'minimum effort, maximum result' - stroke mastery. Always fun and educational to study his videos.

Hope that helps

Stuart
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  #14  
Old 01-26-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Sclim,

I can't answer for Shinji .... given I swim at a similar tempo (1.05) but shorter stroke length, I'm closer to a 24 min mile; Shinji close to 20 min mile. I never feel physically fatigued at the end of a 10k swim, never get above zone-3 and stay mostly in zone-2. In running or cycling, this would be the same as "conversational pace". The most difficult thing in the longer distance swims is keeping razor sharp focus, not allowing my mind to drift, especially after swimming 2hrs or more. I suspect similar for Shinji, hr rate in low zones, remaining focused maintaining balance and slippery streamline - and his incredible stroke length. Shinji is *the* representative of 'minimum effort, maximum result' - stroke mastery. Always fun and educational to study his videos.

Hope that helps

Stuart
Yes, partially.

What I am trying to relate to is when I am racing a 21.1 k foot race, say. At the end I'm pretty uncomfortable, breathing hard and thighs burning. I'm racing, right? I'm going as fast as I can for that distance, and I can't go any faster -- that's my best time.

Do I understand that (let's forget Shinji, because you can't speak for him) when you are doing a 10 k you never "race" because that isn't the point? Your intent is to finish the distance in good style, which means you stay within the physical comfort zone.

So in a 10 k you are swimming at a 1.05 tempo and your resultant speed gets you a 24 minute time. If you fatigue, it's because your mind can't keep up the exquisite concentration required, right?

You say you never get out of breath and you never get physically fatigued at the end.

Suppose I set you the task of racing the 10 k, i.e. competing (with others or with yourself) to try and get the shortest finish time possible. Would you be able to attempt that feat, and if so would you be getting short of breath and physically fatigued with the effort? I would imagine you must. I also would imagine that all this effort and distraction would make the concentration required to maintain good form very difficult or impossible. Maybe no one else could tell, but your style would become unacceptably dis-coordinated to you. Intuitively I would expect your time to decrease, as would be congruent with the task I assigned you.

I am trying to visualise an experienced TI swimmer completing a hard distance swim, really wrung out with the effort, breathing hard and gasping with the exertion, but still with enough good form to make his effort faster.

Or have I got it wrong, and no matter how hard you exerted, what you gain in power and increased tempo would be less than what you lose due to resultant poor stroke mechanics and inefficiency. If that is the case, then your best 10k time, achieved with full relaxation and not causing shortness of breath, can not be improved upon, no matter what exertion or physical you try. So you might as well stay at a pace. that does not cause any distress in the muscles or with oxygen deficit. This somewhat non-intuitive answer (if this is actually the answer) is quite hard for me to grasp.
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  #15  
Old 01-26-2015
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Hi Sclim,

Swimming and running are not in the same ballpark. One you are suspended, while the other there are around 5g's of force on each foot strike.

I'm a 3:45-4h marathoner, love to run too. The last six miles are the most difficult physically, and takes a great deal of mental effort to keep those legs moving and stay focused so form doesn't get too sloppy. My body, calves, feet all hurt long after the end of 26.2 miles.

Swimming a 10k, if my form gets sloppy, drag increases exponentially along with effort. Yes, if I lose mental focus, form suffers, hips start to drop, increased drag, effort goes up. Alternatively, if I swim a faster tempo than my current skill set, I may hold on to it for a 3-4 hundred yards, but deteriorate quickly because I cannot hold on to form without increasing my drag profile. I routinely swim down to .8 tempo, but only to stress the neural system. If I swim a 400m at .9 tempo, I would be in zone 4 or higher due to decreased stroke length, added form drag, even slight errors - effort goes way up. If I swim at 1:05 tempo, I swim the distance faster in zone 2-3 because I'm most in control and streamlined at that tempo. Although, my goal is to get down to a .95 tempo that is sustainable, but my neural system has a long way to go.

Running and swimming have much different priorities: One you are suspended and moving through a substance that's 800x thicker than air, errors increase drag profile exponentially; while the other you're supporting 3-5x your weight on each foot strike and moving forward with little to no resistance.

Stuart
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  #16  
Old 01-26-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Running and swimming have much different priorities: One you are suspended and moving through a substance that's 800x thicker than air, errors increase drag profile exponentially; while the other you're supporting 3-5x your weight on each foot strike and moving forward with little to no resistance.

Stuart
Thanks a lot Stuart for your patient explanation!

I think I'm starting to understand that despite my being prepared to put out some exertional effort and respiratory discomfort to achieve speed if necessary, the critical skills of balance and streamlining in swimming are so fragile, even for an expert, that a beginner like me should stay far far away from any hint of muscular or respiratory overload, or else these skills acquired so slowly and with such great difficulty will just vanish in mid swim, like fleeting dreams, leaving me to flail helplessly, as though TI never existed.

Or to put it another way, at my beginner's stage, maintaining the real-time benefit of these skills (ease of effort required to go forward easily) requires so much mental effort that even the mildest intrusion of muscular or respiratory fatigue will be enough to sabotage the maintenance of good form. Or at least until I am more experienced and the skills have been locked in a little more securely, I suppose.
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  #17  
Old 01-26-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
If I swim a 400m at .9 tempo, I would be in zone 4 or higher due to decreased stroke length, added form drag, even slight errors - effort goes way up.

(I have split up your sentences to make it more obvious for myself!!)

If I swim at 1:05 tempo, I swim the distance faster in zone 2-3 because I'm most in control and streamlined at that tempo.

Stuart
I just read your paragraph 3 again: OMG, so much complexity to unpack and I think I finally got it.

At 0.9 sec tempo, you're swimming in exertion zone 4 but swimming slower.

At 1.05 sec tempo, you're swimming in exertion zone 2 or 3, but swimming faster! And that's the essential reality I was trying to grasp! Thanks again!
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  #18  
Old 01-26-2015
tiswimjapan tiswimjapan is offline
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Hello, I am Shinji.

I really thank everybody for mentioning my swim and the coming race.
Yes, I am going to race Rottnest Channel Swim on Feb. 21.

My training log is on my Japanese blog, and I have been swimming 3000-4000 yds per practice, three days a week.

As you may know, I do not have a competitive swimming background. I started swimming to lose my weight. I have never imagined so many people watch my swim on YouTube. I appreciate you watch my swim and you get something from it.

I am in Japan now and leave for Guam for a TI-Japan speed-up camp soon. I plan to practice myself and swim 12km after the camp as the last phase of training for the race.

If you have any questions, please post them. I would like to answer them as much as possible.
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Shinji Takeuchi
TI Japan Head Coach
the YouTube Swimmer
Shinji's Swim Video: http://youtu.be/rJpFVvho0o4
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  #19  
Old 01-26-2015
Janos Janos is offline
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Hi Shinji,

Have you had to make any alterations to your swimming style for the race?

Janos
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  #20  
Old 01-26-2015
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiswimjapan View Post

My training log is on my Japanese blog, and I have been swimming 3000-4000 yds per practice, three days a week.
Thanks for the sharing Shinji!
Where's your japanese blog (hope Google translator can help here)?
What kind of sets are you typically doing in these practices? E.g. 10x300 at the pace you intend to swim the Rottnest Channel, or shorter sets at faster paces, or other?

Cheers and all the best!
Salvo
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