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  #1  
Old 08-26-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Isnt it time to differentiate TI advice between real beginner swimmers with balance problems and people who are a bit further in their journey and are looking to increase their performance and are not so much interested in effortless easy swimming as a main purpose?

It seems to me a big part of the TI swimmers are not the youngest and not the most ADHD high energy types.
A lot of concern with potential or current physical problems from a lot of people but I hope the most dont have any, and are not likely to get them from a 3-5 hour/week swimload.
There are enough people left that are young and fitt, and just want to swim as fast as possible, at their highest effort Mental and physical. (ok, that will take more than 3-5 hours)
Is the standard TI advice for them too?

Its often said that TI principles can be applied to any swimmer, whatever their level, but I never see concrete examples of what has been done to a good swimmer to make him/her faster.
(and dont start about about west point sprinters, or do, but with some footage of before/after)

At the same time there are guidlines that are confusing, like the depth of the spearing arm.
It may be helpfull up to a certain speed as a balance aid, but at higher speeds it becomes a drag source on itself.

The big danger is that everybody starts to immedialtely use the guidelines for advanced swimmers, because we are all looking for the best, and overestimating our own capabilities.
I think adults should have a right to take their own responsibilty and choose what best fits their needs.
Maybe TI coaches give a 2.30/100m swimmer the same advice as a 1.20/100m swimmer?
I dont know. Just tussing up a ball to start some discussion.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 08-26-2015 at 11:14 AM.
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  #2  
Old 08-26-2015
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Zenturtle,

Quote:
There are enough people left that are young and fitt, and just want to swim as fast as possible, at their highest effort Mental and physical. (ok, that will take more than 3-5 hours)
Is the standard TI advice for them too?
Do these swimmers need advice from anyone? If mental and physical exhaust is first choice, no school or advice will be necessary. (Provided they'll have no issues with their bodies.)

Quote:
Its often said that TI principles can be applied to any swimmer, whatever their level, but I never see concrete examples of what has been done to a good swimmer to make him/her faster....
Think Suzanne or Stuart should jump in here. They're training squads.

Regardless of your swimming level (when able to swim a continues 400m) I'd recommend Suzanne's 12 weeks Fast Forward program. It's a sophisticated interlink from technical skills and endurance work. Easy to customize to your special level. And your success might be measurable. If not, you'll get a fresh view at your own strokes at least. (And it's far more interesting than pure CSS laps, maybe even without other FPs...)


Quote:
The big danger is that everybody starts to immedialtely use the guidelines for advanced swimmers, because we are all looking for the best, and overestimating our own capabilities.
I think adults should have a right to take their own responsibilty and choose what best fits their needs.
Think you're very right here. Especially the alone working/swimming swimmers of us without regularly coache's hints. Think I'm not the only one who read/hear-think-try-go on and some months later get back and think, why didn't I understand what was meant. No new information but whole new point of view (better hopefuly...). Was it last year when Terry started his training and sometimes went back to foundations Hanging Head, Laser Lead, Relaxed Recovery...?

Nothing is bad in permanent repeating foundations as low hanging fruits, but I'll always strive to the highest.... and liked to get it with least possible effort... and then I'm disappointed if it won't work ;-) Swimming can also educate about humility which might be not the worst thing at all...

Quote:
I think adults should have a right to take their own responsibilty and choose what best fits their needs.
Yes, and this may be the decision: TI is not my way. But it's one of the better options for sure.

Quote:
Maybe TI coaches give a 2.30/100m swimmer the same advice as a 1.20/100m swimmer?
I'm not a coach, but TI-advices are indivdual and wouldn't be the same for two different 2:30min/100m or two 1:20min/100m swimmers. This is a problem via forum or eMail.


Quote:
I dont know. Just tussing up a ball to start some discussion.
Don't know too. Are we alone in this thread?

Best regards,
Werner

PS: For the acronym list: What does ADHD mean?
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  #3  
Old 08-26-2015
Streak Streak is offline
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Hi ZT.
Great question.
I can say for me that my mechanics have changed as I have become more proficient in TI. My times have improved from 2+ minutes per 100 down to 1:45 at a casual pace and mid to low 1:30's when I do my 6x100 on 1:50 sprints.

I have adapted the basic principles and routines slightly to fit what I find works for me. I don't want to swim countless effortless lengths, I want to combine that with some faster exercises that stress my cardio system somewhat. At the same time I am also always looking for improvement and extra fine tuning. I am 56 by the way.

I am also no coach but as a regular at the local pool a number of folks have commented on the easy relaxed TI style and asked for help. For them I go back to basics and don't get tied up in the finer technical details until they get the basics right.

My advice was different to the triathlete who was struggling with their swimming but could swim quite well to start with.

It's a huge credit to TI that I have got to where I am now and the compliments from fellow swimmers don't hurt either and motivate me to train even more.

Oh and Werner, ADHD stands for Attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder.
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  #4  
Old 08-26-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Streak,
if you would describe the part that is your current foundation of the stroke and the part that is more speed orientated, can you say that the foundation is the same for different paces and some technical details are different for higher speeds, or is there also a fundamental change needed for swimming at higher speeds?

What happens going from 2 min to 1.30/100m pace?
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  #5  
Old 08-26-2015
Streak Streak is offline
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It's quite a while ago that I swam at a 2 min. pace and I am not able to do that anymore! The main reason is that at that time there were a bunch of things I was doing wrong causing lots of drag which I have now managed to correct. It would therefore not make sense to compare the technical details from then to now.

I think I have my foundation pretty well set now but not perfect mainly in my recovery and my core. Given these imperfections the difference between my 1:45 pace and my 1:30 pace is largely stroke rate and possibly some extra stroke lengthening. It's possible that other things are contributing to the faster times at the higher stroke rate but I don't know what these are.
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  #6  
Old 08-26-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Streak View Post
It's quite a while ago that I swam at a 2 min. pace and I am not able to do that anymore! The main reason is that at that time there were a bunch of things I was doing wrong causing lots of drag which I have now managed to correct. It would therefore not make sense to compare the technical details from then to now.

I think I have my foundation pretty well set now but not perfect mainly in my recovery and my core. Given these imperfections the difference between my 1:45 pace and my 1:30 pace is largely stroke rate and possibly some extra stroke lengthening. It's possible that other things are contributing to the faster times at the higher stroke rate but I don't know what these are.
I'm at the other end of the spectrum from Streak, but I echo the differences he mentions above. When I push my pace (which I've been doing a lot lately) my stroke rate goes up and my distance per stroke goes down, but I try to maintain the same foundation. The challenges are trying to keep the timing correct and losing control of some of my muscle groups which can make me, for example, start to drop my elbow at high stroke rates. Also relaxed breathing becomes difficult when I am pushing it.

Last edited by Danny : 08-26-2015 at 08:00 PM.
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  #7  
Old 08-26-2015
Ron Bear Ron Bear is offline
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ZT,
Not a TI coach, but material on the TI site answers your question. 2:30 per 100M implies poor balance (to me) and that implies work on the very fundamentals. 1:20 per 100M is almost my full out speed and balance is not usually what I work on. I don't recall exactly how TI lays out their pyramid, but I do recall it is a pyramid with balance at the base and more advanced skills towards the top, so I know a TI coach wouldn't give the same advice to both of your hypothetical swimmers.

Ron
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  #8  
Old 08-27-2015
CoachEricDeSanto CoachEricDeSanto is offline
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I have a short bit of experience with high level speed. Last year I coached the fastest 50 and 100 freestyler in NM that was not a year round swimmer. We reached 22low for the 50 and 49low for the 100. Not extreme speed, but enough to give you my approach to TI speed. I don't have before and after footage, but the previous year he swim his 50 in 39 strokes at 23.0. This year he swam it in 35 strokes at 22:38.

You mentioned effortless swimming. I believe this is one of the most misunderstood aspects of TI swimming. Swimming a 41 sec 100yd free is going to hurt. There is no avoiding that. I use two ways to think about effort in high speed.
1. If I make your 20 sec 50 free easier (as in moving from a 10 effort level to a 9), then your 41 sec 100 becomes possible.
2. Remember that intention is the priority. Swimming that fast always requires effort. But the goal of practice for that speed is never increasing effort. The goal is to increase the tempo that you can hold your stroke count. And the path to that increasing tempo is relaxing the recovery, better posture to reduce drag during your pull, bettering timing to maximize the effect of your effort.

You mentioned the deep hand. Remember that everything is a balance. At any speed, too low a hand position will add drag and too high a hand position will add drag by forcing down the hips. So, at any speed, play with hand position to find the position that gives you the best stroke count. You are correct that it will change with speed. But even at high speeds, most people don't have the shoulder flexibility to extend shallower than the shoulders and keep their hips up.

I do give beginning swimmers and advanced swimmers the same general advice - increase speed by improving balance, streamline and then grip on the water. The details of which focal points they are ready for at any given time will change.
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  #9  
Old 08-28-2015
gary p gary p is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachEricDeSanto View Post
You mentioned effortless swimming. I believe this is one of the most misunderstood aspects of TI swimming. Swimming a 41 sec 100yd free is going to hurt. There is no avoiding that. I use two ways to think about effort in high speed.
1. If I make your 20 sec 50 free easier (as in moving from a 10 effort level to a 9), then your 41 sec 100 becomes possible.
2. Remember that intention is the priority. Swimming that fast always requires effort. But the goal of practice for that speed is never increasing effort. The goal is to increase the tempo that you can hold your stroke count. And the path to that increasing tempo is relaxing the recovery, better posture to reduce drag during your pull, bettering timing to maximize the effect of your effort.

Thanks, you've managed to reconcile and summarize something I've vaguely understood but couldn't articulate. As a competitive "utility freestyler" (anything from 50 to 1650) in the pool, I came to TI from the opposite direction of most.

I stumbled on TI while googling for technique videos. While the product shown (a relatively slow, low-effort stroke that appeared to be geared to long distance swims) wasn't what I was looking for, I recognized there must be some wisdom there that could be translated to my situation.
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  #10  
Old 08-28-2015
AWP AWP is offline
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Coach EDS
Nice input, spot on imo...
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