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  #31  
Old 05-24-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Why not use a TT? It doesn't lie

Salvo
Hi Salvo, I have a patent to suggest, which I would be glad to share with anyone who can put together the hardware to do it. The problem with TT's today is that you have to first determine a stroke rate and then match your swimming to the beeps. In my new patent, the TT lets you swim however you want and then tells you what your stroke rate was. This is (for me) a big problem with the TT. I know that the Garmin supposedly can do something like this, but my impression is that the numbers it generates aren't very reliable.

Idiots like me spend a lot of time relying on trial and error to improve our swimming. Sometimes by accident we do something right and then we have to go back and try to analyze it. The current form of the TT is not very well adapted to this method of self improvement. This is why I only use it in very limited situations.
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  #32  
Old 05-24-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Hi Salvo, I have a patent to suggest, which I would be glad to share with anyone who can put together the hardware to do it. The problem with TT's today is that you have to first determine a stroke rate and then match your swimming to the beeps. In my new patent, the TT lets you swim however you want and then tells you what your stroke rate was. This is (for me) a big problem with the TT. I know that the Garmin supposedly can do something like this, but my impression is that the numbers it generates aren't very reliable.

Idiots like me spend a lot of time relying on trial and error to improve our swimming. Sometimes by accident we do something right and then we have to go back and try to analyze it. The current form of the TT is not very well adapted to this method of self improvement. This is why I only use it in very limited situations.
That's interesting Danny. You hit the nail on the head. The TT helps when you prescribe a Tempo or Cadence you have an idea you want to achieve. But there's no swimming equivalent (yet) of the Garmin run watches with a foot-pod that displays in real time the feedback of what running cadence you're running at, right this second (and changes numbers in real time as you change your cadence). 4iiii makes a sunglasses mounted LED strip called "Sportiiiis" which lights up the appropriate pre-programmed coloured LED to tell you what the cadence is without having to look down at your watch; but there also is an audio announcement in your ear that tells you every 30 seconds or whatever, your cadence in a human voice "Cadence: Ninety-Two". That's what we need with your device.
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  #33  
Old 05-24-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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OK, really fun session today that had me laughing out loud at the end of each repeat. I was able to re-create the feeling of a shoulder-driven recovery motion, and good things continued to happen. My whole core activation and diagonal spear/kick connection was much stronger, and my hips/legs riding higher in the water, and my kick was with a straighter leg and much more from the core. My heels were actually above the water as they began each down-kick, which I don't usually feel. My anchoring felt stronger, too, as if the water had become thicker. I've abandoned my exploration of a faster above-water recovery motion for now while I dial this in, because it feels like it's going to be a big deal for my swimming. I think I've moved a big step toward swimming from my core with this new sensation.

As a result, I was able to consistently hit :46 for 50m at 13 SPL without really trying too hard. As a byproduct, I also started hitting some 12 SPLs for 25m repeats--not very often, but often enough not to be a fluke, and without aiming to extend SPL at all. I dropped about :02/50m off repeats at all my commonly used SPLs as well (13-16 SPL). These are what I'd consider fast-ish cruising speeds, and not all-out 50m sprints by any means.

This all seems to build off of moving the load for the recovery motion to the whole shoulder assembly/side of my body. Previously I had been stretching tall by really focusing on stretching my ARM forward as far as possible, which was pretty demanding to sustain. But now that I have the awareness of what my shoulder is doing, I feel like I'm stretching my SHOULDER (and with it, the entire torso) to be taller in the water, which doesn't seem to carry the same exertion that my old way of stretching my arms did.

A great session--it's been a while since I felt a breakthrough of this magnitude. I'm expecting that the sensations will fade as the novelty wears off, but I think the positive effects will become a permanent part of my stroke with just a little more work. Fun!
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  #34  
Old 05-24-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Why not use a TT? It doesn't lie

Salvo
thanks for the suggestion; the battery ran down on my TT this winter and I haven't taken the trouble to replace it yet. But I do feel like very soon I'll be doing lots of TT work.

That said, though, I have really begun to enjoy going as gadget-free in my swim practice as I can, and I think that's probably valuable in developing the skill to listen intuitively to your body. But the TT is so valuable in making incremental changes to SR that I'll probably bite the bullet and get that battery soon.

But the math doesn't lie, either. If I'm swimming faster at the same distance and SPL, it's a given that SR has increased. After today's session, I think what threw me off was that I was swimming 13 SPL, but the 13th stroke was slightly shorter (and therefore faster) because of reduced drag and/or improved propulsion. That showed up again today.
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Last edited by Tom Pamperin : 05-24-2016 at 11:39 PM.
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  #35  
Old 05-24-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Quote:
OK, really fun session today that had me laughing out loud at the end of each repeat. I was able to re-create the feeling of a shoulder-driven recovery motion, and good things continued to happen. My whole core activation and diagonal spear/kick connection was much stronger, and my hips/legs riding higher in the water, and my kick was with a straighter leg and much more from the core. My heels were actually above the water as they began each down-kick, which I don't usually feel
Did it feel like walking with giant steps?
Setting the leg up high and extending through the body and then releasing can feel very powerfull doesnt it?
If you can lock the arm good in the water the effect is even greater.
Wish I could get it all the time but it comes and goes at the moment.
But its the way to swim.When you have done it you know for sure.
(For the moment ;-)
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  #36  
Old 05-24-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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I'll be hoping the moment lasts a long while, but I suppose it'll fade soon.

I didn't think of giant steps, though I'll try feeling that tomorrow. It felt more like I was suddenly swimming/surging downhill, as if the water surface was tilted, while my torso was doing the work. And yes, it felt very powerful.
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  #37  
Old 05-25-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I think that downhillfeeling is mainly caused by a kick deeper from the core, like you said. A straighter leg forces you to move that lever form deep inside. Legs tight and high, inward pointed toes. Making the kick the most effective-efficient.
The giant steps feeling comes from the big whole body stretch followed by release-contract rhythm I guess, which is a bit like walking with big steps. (thats how it feels to me)
Its the art of achieving this feeling without making giant streanline disturbing amplitudes with the limbs.
Dont know how it all works precisely, but I certainly get the impression sometimes this is the way to go.
No precise times to back it up, but always suddenly going faster relative to fellow swimmers in the lane when I get it.
Its not free energy though. Just tapping into a different source. It gets tiring after a while also, only at slightly different places in the body.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 05-25-2016 at 07:18 AM.
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  #38  
Old 05-25-2016
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Tom
Regarding your post: I didn't consciously speed up the above water movement for this new experiment, so I'm not sure where my speed gain (:46/50m vs. :48/50m at 13 SPL) came from. Obviously the stroke rate had to be higher since SPL was constant, though, right?

Somewhere in this thread I think you estimated your sr was around 1:60. If this is true
and you were able to do a faster turn, this would account for the shorter time.

Just a thought

Sherry
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  #39  
Old 05-26-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Sherry,

thanks for the thought. After reading your post, it occurs to me that if I'm moving slightly faster, and with a slightly longer stroke (i.e. 12 1/2 SPL instead of 13 SPL), the extra momentum going into each turn probably does boost speed a bit, too.

Since my main interest is open water, I haven't worried much about turns. I probably have lots of room to make them faster if I were racing pool events.
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  #40  
Old 05-26-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
I'll be hoping the moment lasts a long while, but I suppose it'll fade soon.
Ha--laughing again today, because I couldn't quite recapture that magical feeling from yesterday. The moment did not last all that long!

That said, I could still feel a foundational change in my stroke lurking there underneath all the thrashing today. I think I was trying too hard and not letting it happen.

Today was mostly about extending distance at 15 SPL while staying relaxed and mentally calm, so I did a bunch of 50-100-150-200 repeats with :20 rest between each, and came in reliably at :50 for each one. That's an 8:20/500m pace, so lots of room to improve yet if I'm serious about maintaining a 7:30 500m. I definitely still felt a much more powerful core-kick connection, though, so the new stroke feel was not completely gone.

It's always interesting when I start to move beyond months of short repeats, to see how uncomfortable/fearful I am until my body re-learns that it is quite capable of just continuing rather than stopping every 50m. There's definitely a bit of tension that comes into my mind when I do that second flip turn for the 100m, or move from there to the 150 or 200.

What am I afraid of? It's a nice way of keeping the ego in check, though, when you realize that even adding a single 100m repeat can be enough to let a tiny bit of panic start to creep in!
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