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  #11  
Old 05-17-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
THis is exactly how I introduce "gears" swimmingn in our weekend workshops and coach trainings, but modifying recovery speed. Good work. You're starting to see fruits of your experiment
Suzanne,

thanks for your input--it's funny that it took me so long to become aware of this opportunity to build faster tempos, but that seems to happen a lot. It takes time spent doing a lot of mindful swimming until I suddenly develop the capacity to be aware of the next opportunity.
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  #12  
Old 05-17-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
Suzanne,

thanks for your input--it's funny that it took me so long to become aware of this opportunity to build faster tempos, but that seems to happen a lot. It takes time spent doing a lot of mindful swimming until I suddenly develop the capacity to be aware of the next opportunity.
That's pretty much how every important advancement occurs, isn't it ? We stand on the shoulders of giants and sometimes the giant is within us.
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  #13  
Old 05-18-2016
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Tom

Your last paragraph was very interesting to me:

As to how sustainable my SPL is, the 11-12 results are flukes. The 13 I can hold consistently for a set of 4 x 25, 3 x 50, 2 x 75, 1 x 100, with a speed of :47-48/50m. This takes an intense focus on stretching tall, and results in a much higher perceived effort than faster speeds at higher SPLs. Also, I had to work a while to get there. There were weeks where I never finished the 3 x 50m--I'd do one, fail on the second, and start all over with the 25s instead.


For the last four weeks I had been copying one of Terry's practice sets that emphasized very short repeats with different focal points--much like you have been doing. Then Coach Suzanne also directed me to a post of hers---DPS Drill in Swimming-How to doit the right way. Both Terry's and Suzanne's practices ended with the 4321 drill. I could never get through that drill. Decided to just try to cut that in half--in other words, 1 L, 2 L, 3L, and then 4L. Was somewhat encouraged that you also had trouble making it through that whole drill. (You are a whole lot bettter swimmer than me!)

Anyway, would you suggest that I should go back to the original 4321 drill and keep trying to get thru the complete ladder?

Sherry
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  #14  
Old 05-18-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
For the last four weeks I had been copying one of Terry's practice sets that emphasized very short repeats with different focal points--much like you have been doing. Then Coach Suzanne also directed me to a post of hers---DPS Drill in Swimming-How to doit the right way. Both Terry's and Suzanne's practices ended with the 4321 drill. I could never get through that drill. Decided to just try to cut that in half--in other words, 1 L, 2 L, 3L, and then 4L. Was somewhat encouraged that you also had trouble making it through that whole drill. (You are a whole lot bettter swimmer than me!)

Anyway, would you suggest that I should go back to the original 4321 drill and keep trying to get thru the complete ladder?

Sherry
Sherry,

that's a good question. Honestly, the main reason I stuck with the SPL focus for so long is that I really really enjoy that kind of practice--it wasn't something I got frustrated with and had to force myself to do. It was something I couldn't WAIT to do when I got in the pool next.

I think I started with 14 SPL as the best I could do, but started getting occasional 13s within a week (3-5 swim sessions). I figured if I could do it once, I could learn to make it easy and extend the distance, so I kept at it. So maybe it took me 4-5 weeks before I could do the full 4321 set with any reliability. Then I kept going to make it feel easier each time.

That said, I'm not sure I would recommend focusing on stuff like that for anyone else if it felt like something they HAD to do. More and more I prioritize my swimming on what I enjoy, and I trust my instincts to keep moving me to a new productive focus when the old one has run its course. In the past couple of weeks I've moved to doing most of my swimming at 15 SPL. I've become fascinated with the idea of establishing a new fast-ish cruising speed at 15 SPL for 500m. I figure that means I'll be ready to race at 16 SPL if I do some open water events this summer.

If you do want to continue a SPL focus (which is probably smart if you're not comfortable in your green zone yet), I think that prioritizing a feeling of ease and relaxation is the key, with as much rest as you need to really stay focused and at ease. Once you have that you can extend the distance you can hold that ease.

Good luck! (By the way, I appreciate your kind words about me being a good swimmer, but you're not fooling anyone--I vividly remember not being able to complete a single length of freestyle when I started back in 1998!)
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  #15  
Old 05-18-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
sclim,

thanks for the questions. It's interesting to compare as we seem to have opposite strengths and weaknesses, don't we? I think my focus on SPL is a holdover from early TI materials, which seemed to emphasize that much more (there wasn't even a green zone, just the implication that low SPL was a mark of efficiency--which it is, but I really like the newer focus on speed = DPS x SR.

I wanted to get as low a SPL as I could and still be swimming, without cheating with a longer push-off or overgliding, and could hold for something like 10 x 100m on 2:00. I was imagining 12 SPL since I had achieved that in the past with my old, bad, pre-wide tracks stroke. I got 13 SPL instead, with a very occasional 12, and one or two 11s.

As to how sustainable my SPL is, the 11-12 results are flukes. The 13 I can hold consistently for a set of 4 x 25, 3 x 50, 2 x 75, 1 x 100, with a speed of :47-48/50m. This takes an intense focus on stretching tall, and results in a much higher perceived effort than faster speeds at higher SPLs. Also, I had to work a while to get there. There were weeks where I never finished the 3 x 50m--I'd do one, fail on the second, and start all over with the 25s instead.

Endless variables to be curious about!
OK, Tom, this is very, very helpful. This is exactly my experience (with SPL values adjusted for my technical level of course). The easier faster speed at higher SPL's threw me -- I thought it was just me, and indicative of something wrong I was doing. With your reinforcement I now see the short distance low SPL drills as a worthwhile skill set to get good at (in hard working, focused practice) so as to use the skills obtained carried over in competition, likely at an easier higher stroke rate, but still using the more efficient stroke mechanics learned under slow more difficult balance conditions. Is that your thinking too?
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  #16  
Old 05-20-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by sclim View Post
OK, Tom, this is very, very helpful. This is exactly my experience (with SPL values adjusted for my technical level of course). The easier faster speed at higher SPL's threw me -- I thought it was just me, and indicative of something wrong I was doing. With your reinforcement I now see the short distance low SPL drills as a worthwhile skill set to get good at (in hard working, focused practice) so as to use the skills obtained carried over in competition, likely at an easier higher stroke rate, but still using the more efficient stroke mechanics learned under slow more difficult balance conditions. Is that your thinking too?
Yep--that's what I'm hoping. As you say, slower speeds/lower SPLs have taught me lots about balance, while higher speeds are teaching me more about propulsion and streamlining.

And occasionally there are those tantalzing 50m repeats where I can match my 15 SPL speeds at 13 SPL. If I ever figure out what's happening there, I can see some more speed gain possibilities.
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  #17  
Old 05-21-2016
tomoy tomoy is offline
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In response to the other thread....

When I first tried fast recovery, I found myself huffing puffing and realizing all I had done was upped my stroke rate and effort. It took about 2 months of careful work to tone down the underwater part, divide it from the quickness in the air and find discipline with a tempo trainer to do a quick, relaxed recovery while maintaining the long hull patient, lead hand.

It leads to an opportunity to focus on the curl, the vw beetle touch the bumper forming of the catch. Getting that quickly, smoothly into vertical, feeling the water form beneath the anchor point, then accelerating it gradually through the stroke phase, then whipping it out with hip drive into recovery.

At the same time roughly as the catch is forming, that quick recovery from the high side comes dropping into the water to spear and relax in streamline while the other hand is picking up tempo through the stroke and out into recovery itself. There's a lot of habit breaking and finding where to relax in these milliseconds of motion.

In all, it absolutely has lifted my hips and feet. It's getting to race season, so we'll see, but I'm pretty sure that this will help my distance stamina via lowering the drag of the sinking rear end.
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  #18  
Old 05-21-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Quote:
It leads to an opportunity to focus on the curl, the vw beetle touch the bumper forming of the catch. Getting that quickly, smoothly into vertical, feeling the water form beneath the anchor point, then accelerating it gradually through the stroke phase, then whipping it out with hip drive into recovery.

At the same time roughly as the catch is forming, that quick recovery from the high side comes dropping into the water to spear and relax in streamline while the other hand is picking up tempo through the stroke and out into recovery itself. There's a lot of habit breaking and finding where to relax in these milliseconds of motion.
That sounds good Tomoy.
IF the extra time gained at the front is used in such a productive manner, I can understand your strokerate goes up a bit and speed improves without too much extra effort.
A lot is happening in those microseconds for sure, Ideal to have constant connection with the water during the whole cycle, even if its just with one finger at the front in the beginning gaugng what your lead arm is doing.
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  #19  
Old 05-21-2016
Streak Streak is offline
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Great explanation tomoy. So I guess me trying to get it right in a couple of 100 repeats is expecting a bit much?

I need to distinguish between quick recovery and forced recovery.
Forced goes against the TI mantra so I need to workout how to make the recovery quicker without forcing it otherwise I will also start huffing and puffing!

I am fairly happy with my below the water stroke, time to focus above the water a little.
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  #20  
Old 05-21-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by Streak View Post
Great explanation tomoy. So I guess me trying to get it right in a couple of 100 repeats is expecting a bit much?

I need to distinguish between quick recovery and forced recovery.
Forced goes against the TI mantra so I need to workout how to make the recovery quicker without forcing it otherwise I will also start huffing and puffing!

I am fairly happy with my below the water stroke, time to focus above the water a little.
Oh. (I was lurking and trying to follow and imitate the thread and get free speed myself too.) No quickie benefit? Too bad. I guess I'll have to put in many practice laps after all lol.
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