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  #71  
Old 05-10-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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yesterday a saw a car being towed. The driver of the towed car had little experoence in driving in a towed car and couldnt hold the speed of the towed car the same as the towing car.
Braking to early . or to late, to hard, or to little. letting the distance of the 2 cars deminish too much.
It was only a matter of time the towing vehicle accelerated from too much slack in the rope and bang, the rope snapped.
Couldnt handle the sudden acceleration required for the towed vehicle to make up for the lost speed while the rope was slack.

Same in swimming. If your pressure isnt as constant as possible something is going to break. Thats traction, paddle shape or both.
I heard Terry say in an old video that you should hold your streamline as long as possible and than make the disruptive high drag propulsive action as short as possible to go back to your beloved streamline as fast as possible again.
This promotes snapping ropes in my view.
Possibly the latest teachings have shifted a bit more toward the propulsion side in searching the optimal drag- propulsion compromise.

(whats the rule for using to or too? still dont get it)

Last edited by Zenturtle : 05-10-2016 at 07:51 AM.
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  #72  
Old 05-10-2016
Streak Streak is offline
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Tomoy thanks as always for your insight. More to think about. The lifeguards at the pool are always amused and interested with my approach and what I try to get up to each session. They like the fact that I mix it up breaking things down with different FPs rather
than just swimming for an hour as many others do.

Nice blog article Suzanne.
I don't usually have the discipline to do these kinds of drills but I'm certainly going to try this one.

Last edited by Streak : 05-10-2016 at 07:44 AM.
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  #73  
Old 05-10-2016
Streak Streak is offline
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ZT I was going to start explaining to vs too but these guys do it much better.

http://grammarist.com/usage/to-too/
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  #74  
Old 05-11-2016
Streak Streak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Sherry, every focal point that improves efficiency is a "DPS" focal point. better balance, better streamlining, better catch, better timed kick, etc. they allow allow you to travel further with less effort. Here si a blog I wrote awhile ago about "DPS" and how to do it the right ... and the wrong way.

http://steelcityendurance.com/swimmi...the-right-way/

This is an older post and my thoughts may have changed a bit since thenb ut should be helpful to some.
I did the workout mentioned in the post above.
Very interesting results.

My 4x25 warm up was 13-14 SPL.
The 4 x 25 fist drill saw that go up as expected to a max of 17 but gave me the opportunity to focus on feeling the water on my forearm, getting a decent catch and slowly accelerating to towards the hip.

The odd/even 4x25 still had me at an SPL of 14 while I concentrated on length and spear depth.

Putting it all together I continued with an SPL of 14.

Then on the main set I was still able to hold the 14 SPL with an average 100 yard pace in the mid 1:30's with the last 100 at 1:33 which really surprised me.

I then did a 100 warm down and on my first 25 did 17 SPL!! This is what happens when you just relax and don't have any FP's. I did the remaining 3x25 back at 14.

Thanks Suzanne, great eye opener for me.

Last edited by Streak : 05-11-2016 at 08:59 PM.
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  #75  
Old 05-13-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Streak View Post
I did the workout mentioned in the post above.
Very interesting results.

My 4x25 warm up was 13-14 SPL.
The 4 x 25 fist drill saw that go up as expected to a max of 17 but gave me the opportunity to focus on feeling the water on my forearm, getting a decent catch and slowly accelerating to towards the hip.

The odd/even 4x25 still had me at an SPL of 14 while I concentrated on length and spear depth.

Putting it all together I continued with an SPL of 14.

Then on the main set I was still able to hold the 14 SPL with an average 100 yard pace in the mid 1:30's with the last 100 at 1:33 which really surprised me.

I then did a 100 warm down and on my first 25 did 17 SPL!! This is what happens when you just relax and don't have any FP's. I did the remaining 3x25 back at 14.

Thanks Suzanne, great eye opener for me.
You are very welcome! What a great set description. I'm glad you found the blog post helpful! :)
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Coach of 4 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #76  
Old 05-13-2016
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Coach Suzanne

Tried the workout also, but results weren't as good as Joel's. I have been working on a practice session posted by Terry a while ago.--"A pracitse to improve balance, streamline...and focus. Focal points were similar to those you cited in your post--swim taller, relax head, neck, shoulders, bring spearing arm forward as slowly as you can.

Here were my results

First 4 x 25 easy and effortless: spl was 21, 20, 18, 18

Fist Drill spl/Fist was19, 2 fingers 20, 3 fingers 19, palm 17

4x25 evens were focusing on tall posture, head supported by water spl L2 17 L4 18
Odds were focusing on spearing 6' to 8 " spl L1 17 L3 17

The next 4 lengths were focusing on head supported by water spl 17 on all 4 lengths
This became "N" for me on the next part. Here are the results of that

4 x 25 17, 17.5 16, 17
3 x 50 17/18 17/18 16/18 (so far so good, but the wheels are going to fall off!)
2 x 75 18/19 and fell apart on the 3rd length (20) Tried again and did focus harder and got back spl to 17/18/18

At this point I stopped and realized that maybe I need to do more of the 2 length intervals in order to feel more comfortable with the 2 x 75.

The cool down spl returned to 17 18 18 and 18

Would it be advantageous to do this workout twice a week and alternate with the other practice that I mentioned in the opening of this post?

Longer rests between the main sets?

Or just less single lengths and try more of the 2 lengths with smaller rest periods.

It was interesting to note that in Terry's practice that he also ended with the 4321, Since I found that too hard, I trimmed it to 1L, 2L, 3L, and then 4L This totaled 10 lengths as opposed to the 20 in the regular 4321 drill

Any suggestions appreciated

Sherry

Last edited by jenson1a : 05-13-2016 at 06:19 PM. Reason: changed 3 x 75 to 2 x 75
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  #77  
Old 05-13-2016
Streak Streak is offline
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That's great going Sherry, no doubt the pros will chime in, but here's my sixpence worth.
I don't know what your ideal SPL is but if it is 16-19 then at least you know you are able to do this.
If you are able to do this then the next assumption is that you must be getting most of the TI basics right.
If you are only able to do these counts when you are fresh or over shorter distances then it may just mean that your fitness level needs to increase.

One way to do this is to give yourself a fixed time to do say 50 yards. For example 60 seconds. If you do it in 50 seconds then you have a 10 second rest before the next 50 yards. Do say 6 sets of these until you find the time that you allow for them to be too easy then reduce that time by 5 seconds. If it's too hard then give yourself more time.

Do this 6x50 once per session until you find yourself getting fitter. You can then do a 6x50 on 60 seconds, take a break and then do another 6x50 on 55 seconds.

Remember thought that you're not just chasing the clock but need to concentrate in your form as well. I found not counting strokes allowed my brain to concentrate more on the other focal points.

Good luck.

Last edited by Streak : 05-22-2016 at 07:33 AM.
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  #78  
Old 05-13-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Streak View Post
That's great going Sherry, no doubt the pros will chime in, but here's my sixpence worth.
I don't know what your ideal SPL is but if it is 16-19 then at least you know you are able to do this.
If you are able to do this then the next assumption is that you must be getting most of the TI basics right.
If you are only able to do these counts when you are fresh or over shorter distances then it may just mean that your fitness level needs to increase.

One way to do this is to give yourself a fixed time to do say 50 yards. For example 60 seconds. If you do it in 50 seconds then you have a 10 second rest before the next 50 yards. Do say 6 sets of these until you find the time that you allow for them to be too easy then reduce that time by 5 seconds. If it's too hard then give yourself more time.

Do this 6x50 once per session until you find yourself getting fitter. You can then do a 6x50 on 60 seconds, take a break and then do another 6x50 on 55 seconds.

Remember thought that your not just chasing the clock but need to concentrate in your form as well. I found not counting strokes allowed my brain to concentrate more on the other focal points.

Good luck.
I, too, find stroke counting distracting and using up "mental overhead" that can't be then used for attention to focal points. But then, I find the stroke count gives me so much useful real and honest information about the current effectiveness of my technique that I am reluctant to abandon or even temporarily ignore it. My technique can deteriorate suddenly within one length and I'm not aware of it specifically, only of the fatigue that triggers it. That's why stroke counting is so valuable for me -- if I am able to hold on to a reasonable stroke count despite growing fatigue, then I know I've accomplished something useful. My instinctive awareness of "real time" stroke effectiveness isn't good enough (yet?) to be my guide to immediate technique correction.
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  #79  
Old 05-13-2016
Streak Streak is offline
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sclim, I rarely count strokes. I use the clock as my measure.
If I am swimming faster or maintaining a decent speed without getting over fatigued then I know that I am doing OK.
I Swim my fastest when I am not using a TT or counting strokes.
I did a couple of 38 second 50's this morning, very fast for me, I have no idea how many strokes I did but I do know that I must have had my stuff together to be able to achieve this. What I do do now and again is reduce the tempo slightly and see if I can do the same time with less effort.

Having said all of this, doing Suzanne's exercise (or doing some counting now and again) was an eye opener. Forcing me to count everything and showing that I can maintain a low SPL while still doing decent times. I believe that that's a consequence of how I have been training and not the other way around!

I am pretty unconventional in many of things that I do! Ask my fly fishing buddies!

What's most important is to understand what all the variables are and to use those that mean the most to you in order to make you a better swimmer.
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  #80  
Old 05-14-2016
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Hi Joel, Sclim:

What helps with the added task of counting strokes is summarize your count rather than count each hand entry. When you've been counting strokes for awhile and have a good awareness of your tempo and SPL, you notice the same hand hits the wall or leads prior to the turn. If my left hand leads, it's 14, if right 15 - if right plus high side left (not a full stroke) 15.5, ... and so on. But I usually count each hand entry on the 4th length of a 100 in 25y pool or last 25m in a 50m pool.

Based on your previous comments it seems you can easily distinguish between 14 and 17 strokes just by the feel and not counting hand entries. Now just take notice which hand hits the wall first to summarize the length without counting each stroke.

Stuart
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