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  #61  
Old 05-05-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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For me to have a good arm stroke, I need one shoulder forward and the other back, but when both arms are extended forward I don't have the leverage from my shoulders in the stroke.
Looking at Shinjis old clip, it looks like one forward shoulder is pushing the other back at the latest timing possible, so you are right that normal stroke is more a combination of movements and having that recoveing arm coming down.
In that sense, a first stroke from a streamline is more about a pure locking the arm in and pulling the body forward than the other strokes.
I guess that first stroke will have a bit more pressure than the others if you decelerate to swim speed.
Maybe the first stroke is ususally started a little above swimspeed to have the same pressure on the first stroke?

Last edited by Zenturtle : 05-05-2016 at 08:15 AM.
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  #62  
Old 05-05-2016
descending descending is offline
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As far as more pressure on that first stroke I'm not good enough to say. There is so much going on with going from dolphin to 6 beat, rotation, feeling for the beginning of the moment my catch takes a good lock etc. Just one of those areas where the athlete in me takes over and I go do it. I guess in theory sometimes it is probably less, sometime more b/c none of us can nail down every wall or stroke cycle perfectly all day.

Oddly the more I practice the better I get;)
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  #63  
Old 05-05-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
If you had to make a guess, at what percentage of your normal swim speed you start your first normal deep stroke usually?
Generally less pressure as your speed is faster and you want to maintain as much wall speed into your swim. Maintaining speed is easiest by allowing stroke to follow the pressure pocket created when the arm starts its catch.
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  #64  
Old 05-05-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Looking at Shinjis old clip, it looks like one forward shoulder is pushing the other back at the latest timing possible, so you are right that normal stroke is more a combination of movements and having that recoveing arm coming down.
In that sense, a first stroke from a streamline is more about a pure locking the arm in and pulling the body forward than the other strokes.
I guess that first stroke will have a bit more pressure than the others if you decelerate to swim speed.
Maybe the first stroke is ususally started a little above swimspeed to have the same pressure on the first stroke?
I'll just comment that the more flexibility you have the later you can postpone the shoulder and weight shift, and Shinji has great flexibility. Me trying to imitate Shinji in this regard is probably like me trying to use a dolphin kick to come off the wall faster, with the exception that I could mess up my shoulders in the process.
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  #65  
Old 05-08-2016
Streak Streak is offline
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Back in the pool on Friday.
I did some warm up drills then my swim buddy arrived.
I did his 6 x 100 on 1:45 averaging about 1:35 per 100.

He usually takes a short break and then does another faster 6 x 100 on 1:40.

I needed to leave the pool so said I would join him in the first 100 of his second 6x100 but would do it at a more relaxed tempo as part of my warm down.
I wasn't using my TT at the time but tried to reduce the tempo which I felt I was doing.

Ended up doing a 1:28 and left scratching my head wondering how this was possible!

At my session with Stuart he got me to focus on DPS vs SPL vs perceived effort trying to do the same times but at a lower tempo. Looks like I just managed to do a bit this achieving a faster time without feeling too winded at the end.

Now doubt I would have got a bit slower had I stayed for all of the 6x100 but pleased at the result on the first one anyway.

ZT, that 1:20 100 creeps closer and closer!
I can do that pace over 50, just need to workout how to do it over 100!!
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  #66  
Old 05-09-2016
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Streak

Regarding this:
At my session with Stuart he got me to focus on DPS vs SPL vs perceived effort trying to do the same times but at a lower tempo. Looks like I just managed to do a bit this achieving a faster time without feeling too winded at the end.


CAn you elaborate on the focus dps vs spl vs rpe? Longer arm extension or ? Can't think of another fp for dps

Sherry
To make myself a little more clearer, what do you concentrate on to have same times but at a lower tempo? Focus on body position (high hips), deeper spear or shallower spear, improving breathing technique? etc etc etc

Last edited by jenson1a : 05-09-2016 at 11:04 AM. Reason: additional focal points
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  #67  
Old 05-09-2016
Streak Streak is offline
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Hi Sherry,
I am not one who is really able to explain in detail what I do as well as some of the other folks.
I think what I do at slower tempos is try and make sure that every stroke counts. I try and grab more water by extending a little more and making sure that I complete the stroke fully before recovery.

I don't have the same awareness of others who post here of where my hips are and my overall body position. I really try and keep my eyes looking straight down and to streamline my push off at each end as much as possible. I find that deeper spears slow me down. I don't think my spear changes with tempo.

It's like cycling in a lower gear, fewer pedals but a little more effort/purpose per pedal. This suits my muscle make up as opposed to faster tempos.

I hope this is enough explanation for you!

Off to the pool now, on the way will try and work out what I will do this session.
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  #68  
Old 05-10-2016
tomoy tomoy is offline
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Streak - I'd hazard a guess that the DPS/SPL/Effort formula for you points to the timing and geometry of your stroke. In your almost famous video, Stuart points to "ripping your hand" at 0:21 and also I see it at around 1:19.

I think the slower, or gentler perceived effort allows your forearm to get more vertical. Conversely your effort and trying to go faster means you're rushing the development of traction in the water so you're getting less out of it.

So think about slow arms in the water - getting the feel for the water against your forearm. Fingers-to-fist practice, then back up to open fingers.

Finally, my personal push for 2016: speed up the recovery. Get the whole chunk of meat which is your hand-arm-shoulder out in front of your lungs faster. It's tricky to do that at the same time as slowing down the underwater phase. TT to lock it down. The net result though is better balance.
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  #69  
Old 05-10-2016
tomoy tomoy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Streak View Post
It's like cycling in a lower gear, fewer pedals but a little more effort/purpose per pedal. This suits my muscle make up as opposed to faster tempos.
I'm not so sure it's the muscle make-up so much as your tall-ship build, wingspan and then the technique breaking down at higher speeds. Ripping the water. Once you really lock in efficiency at lower speeds, then speeding up tempo w/o breaking down technique can actually work very well.

Having said that, I wouldn't expect you to average faster than 1.10 tempo, maybe 1.15 for anything longer than 100M. Just pondering out loud here.
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  #70  
Old 05-10-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
Streak

Regarding this:
At my session with Stuart he got me to focus on DPS vs SPL vs perceived effort trying to do the same times but at a lower tempo. Looks like I just managed to do a bit this achieving a faster time without feeling too winded at the end.


CAn you elaborate on the focus dps vs spl vs rpe? Longer arm extension or ? Can't think of another fp for dps

Sherry
To make myself a little more clearer, what do you concentrate on to have same times but at a lower tempo? Focus on body position (high hips), deeper spear or shallower spear, improving breathing technique? etc etc etc
Sherry, every focal point that improves efficiency is a "DPS" focal point. better balance, better streamlining, better catch, better timed kick, etc. they allow allow you to travel further with less effort. Here si a blog I wrote awhile ago about "DPS" and how to do it the right ... and the wrong way.

http://steelcityendurance.com/swimmi...the-right-way/

This is an older post and my thoughts may have changed a bit since thenb ut should be helpful to some.
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Coach of 4 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
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Fresh Freestyle

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