Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 04-30-2016
ti97
 
Posts: n/a
Default

sclim, yes it's sort of like being told in school to "sit up straight".....we should never be practicing "junk" but instead always try to drill in the proper posture and balance to reinforce a neural pathway.....I think streamlining is streamlining whether swimming or pushing off the wall....

I am about your age and my flexibility is not that of a 20 y/o....but "assuming the position" off the wall is a great stretching exercise for my arms and upper back...

Some really great motivation for me on this forum.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-30-2016
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
But it gives me valuable minutes for reflection and mental rehearsal for exactly how I'm going to negotiate the reach for the wall and the grab for the pool lip as I pull myself in for the turn.
sclim, if you are pulling yourself in for the turn on the wall then something probably needs to change. You should be pushing yourself off of the wall, not pulling yourself in. Are you slowing down as you approach?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-30-2016
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
sclim, if you are pulling yourself in for the turn on the wall then something probably needs to change. You should be pushing yourself off of the wall, not pulling yourself in. Are you slowing down as you approach?
Let's see...suppose as I come in, I barely touch with my left fingertips -- that's my last stroke. But momentum keeps me going forward and my right had comes over quickly and grabs the rim of the pool (it's raised about 8 inches). I think I pull a little at this point to augment momentum, and to help scoot my feet in to the wall. Then I push off hard with my right hand, moving upper torso sideways off the wall with my left side leading. My feet are still on the wall. I hit the water and keep on going till I'm almost horizontal under the water and push off with my feet, with my left side down. It (grab, push off with hands, push off with feet) takes 2 beats on the tempo trainer.

If I'm a few inches short coming in on the left side, and I'm not going to make it on the glide, I can sometimes still do a long stroke on the right (actually the underwater stroke is on the left at this point -- the right is really the recovery) and come down directly on the pool rim, and carry on same as before, but I would then count the right as the last stroke.

Last edited by sclim : 04-30-2016 at 04:01 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-30-2016
Streak Streak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 376
Streak
Default

Interesting question Danny and equally interesting reply sclim.
I often think that I am too close to the wall for an extra stroke and end up gliding in and slowing in the process as I reach for the rim with my hand.
Sometimes I take that extra short stroke in order to reach the wall and sometimes its just right.
With 3 turns in a 4x25 getting this right combined with the high side arm lead could easily shave a few more seconds off my 100 time and a whole lot more off my 1650 as well!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-30-2016
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Southwest Florida
Posts: 671
jenson1a
Default

Streak

I always learn something from your posts and videos. However I have a question in your opening post.

When doing a turn I understand that one's body should be at a 45 degrees after the push off from the wall. As you approach the surface one of the outstretched arms will be on the low side and one will be on the high side. Old wisdom was to bring the low side arm forward first.
Stuart had Tom demonstrate last night how doing this almost causes a pause and a bit of a wake in the water. However when bringing the high side arm forward first it was a far more natural with a nice continuity of movement as ones body flattened out.


You said that you bring the high side arm forward first. Isn't it already forward in this push off position?

Sherry
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-30-2016
descending descending is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 226
descending
Default

f
Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post

All these incremental improvements do make a difference, not just in my pool distance times, but I think, and I'm not 100% sure of this yet, but also in my general swimming proficiency.
I guarantee you it won't make you worse! It's clearly evident in a short course pool how big a good vs bad turn can be when you look over at someone's feet who was just even with you b/f the turn. Getting more flexible, maybe a little bit more fitness and certainly finding new water to play with will pay off for you. Let's put it this way. For the open water and triathletes on our team of all ages and skill levels including 2 semi-regular Kona qualifiers I've not heard any of them complaining about getting slower;) To many it seems a fools errand at first exposure, but after some critical thinking is applied as you demonstrated it can be a logical series of progression. Every time you approach a wall you can add to your tool box of overall swim skills. I believe you had mentioned you were nearing the 70 range of age and this is awesome I love to hear that b/c I plan on being there too. The fastest 500 by a 70 year old last year was a 5:48 so don't kiss the speed bullet goodbye yet that beats most everyone on my team!

Last edited by descending : 04-30-2016 at 12:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-30-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

I dont get the high side low side picture.
This guy is flat right before his first stroke almost at the surface and gets on his side during the first stroke just like in normal swimming.
Is he doing something wrong?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXxSvKKxx3Q
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-30-2016
descending descending is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 226
descending
Default

Not at all, but you will notice he is still stroking first with the low side off the wall hip. The faster and harder he goes the slightly more pronounced it will be with respect to less flat when he catches. He's going along about as easy as he can at well under 1 minute 100scy pace that kid is a beast. Remember these guys are not racing with deep spearing catch up strokes they are catching super early out front and grabbing water as early as possible isn't an option it's a must. Stroking like that automatically sets you up to catch very quickly and early with the low side arm. It's a very natural movement to roll that low side into an early catch when coming off the wall with dolphin kicks. I'm not sure I could even find a way to power my stroke with anything but a yank of the arm with shoulder muscles if I took my first stroke with the high side arm b/c all the tension is running down my low side hip from fingers to toes as I roll out of the dolphins. If you simply push off flat the world is your oyster do whatever works.

The only thing I can suggest you do is go to the pool and if you can catch early and shallower see what happens when you try to stroke with a high side arm first earlier and shallower. Honestly if you are using a deep spear I'd probably stick with what works. If you start racing more all you have to do is watch and you see at meets the people at the tip of the spear take their first stroke from the low hip side. The later you catch and the less rotation you have the less it matters. The earlier you catch and the more rotation you come into your breakout with the more it matters to use the low side first.

Last edited by descending : 04-30-2016 at 03:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-30-2016
Streak Streak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 376
Streak
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
Streak

I always learn something from your posts and videos. However I have a question in your opening post.

When doing a turn I understand that one's body should be at a 45 degrees after the push off from the wall. As you approach the surface one of the outstretched arms will be on the low side and one will be on the high side. Old wisdom was to bring the low side arm forward first.
Stuart had Tom demonstrate last night how doing this almost causes a pause and a bit of a wake in the water. However when bringing the high side arm forward first it was a far more natural with a nice continuity of movement as ones body flattened out.


You said that you bring the high side arm forward first. Isn't it already forward in this push off position?

Sherry
Yes you are right, both arms are already forward however one needs to come back to get ready to start swimming. The suggestion is to bring the high side arm back first and not the low side arm. This would mean that the first forward recovery movement would be with this arm as well while the low side arm anchors.

Re-reading what I wrote in my OP I can understand the confusion.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-30-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

Ok, that makes sense. I understand powering through the pull while rotating that (initially low)side toward the surface and when the the body has rotated to the other side you can bring the other arm back.

Never really though about it much and I usually start with bringing the high side arm backwards, which feels like a weak half starting stroke thinking about it.
If you dont have an early catch It could be better to start from a flat position, instead of rolled to deep i guess, otherwise you have to rotate too much from that shorter pull. (or use some big kick to get you to the other side)
You have to make sure the end of your first roll is right at your normal roll angle range so you can continue.

But what is the TI advice now, starting to pull from the low or from the high side?

OOps already answered.
I guess this goes together with the TI late catch relative to roll talked about in another thread.
Thats not my idea of good stroke mechanics, where armpulls are always rigidly linked to bodyrotation, but we are free to disagree.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-30-2016 at 05:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.