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  #31  
Old 03-18-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hey Lloyd, sclim:

None of us are true sinkers. There are rare cases, but I suspect your body (shoulders) will remain at the surface, but the hips will drop. Males, almost all of us, hips will sink very low, but lungs won't. If I release my body to the water, when my body settles into equilibrium, if you draw a line from my chin through ankles, the angle is roughly 70 degs (surface being zero degrees, vertical being 90 degress). Center of mass and center of buoyancy are farther apart. Females not as drastic, typically hips fall between 20-45 degrees, and I've seen many females float effortlessly on the surface.

That's in a pool, fresh water. Ocean, salt water - the body is much more buoyant, my hips fall around 45 degrees. With little body shifting, I can easily float on the surface legs and all in salt water, much like many females I've coached in fresh water.

So - join the club of guys with heavy hips. You can kick more and resort to higher turnover to bring body higher. Both require a lot of effort to remain level, but this action can destabilize the vessel (your torso) and go soft in the middle. Shifting arm weight forward of lungs and learn to press/lean on front of lung ball, use recovery arm for stability, correct recovery entry, kick from hips - keep body stable and at surface, but each require skill and razor sharp focus with little physical effort.

I haven't see Coach Mat's blog, but suspect body position is included in context of increasing tempo as well. Higher turnover doesn't mean you are swimming any faster, only that your arms are moving quicker - which could easily translate to slower swim speed.

Stuart
er...if I take a huge breath and hold superman condition, and push off, after the first beat, my legs gradually sink. If I let even the slightest amount of air out, I get to lie on the bottom of my salt water pool.

That's more than just my legs.
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  #32  
Old 03-18-2016
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Hi Sclim,

There are exceptions, but it's rare - and you may be one of those exceptions. I've had the "true sinker" come to me and it took time to get them to surface. Air will rise, that's your buoy. Filling the lungs and not the stomach will certainly help, and expanding the lungs will be key.

One thing you can do as a test is go to deeper zone of pool, start in vertical position, fill lungs and hold your air, then release your body to the water, fall forward - no toning or tension in the body, head, arms, legs hang completely relaxed. I suspect your shoulders will be near the surface, but body will be near vertical. This should only take about 10 secs to fall into equilibrium, but don't exhale in the process, just hold the air. Key here is release all tension in the body and discover where water and gravity place "your" body.

Stuart
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  #33  
Old 03-18-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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The human body is very close to the density of water. Most humans are less dense and as a result a small portion will tend to be above the surface like a sliver of the skull, it in someone who balances easily, a sliver of buttocks and shouder blades too.

Distribution of body density determines balance. Overall density determines flit vs "sink".

The density is so close to 1.00 that the smallest nudge in the wrong direction can cause the same person to sink or float. I've worked with a lot of men, and a few women that "sank" on beginning but when we got them to relax the muscles , exhale more slowly and work on shapes and angles of various postures, the float and balance nicely.
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  #34  
Old 03-18-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Sclim,

There are exceptions, but it's rare - and you may be one of those exceptions. I've had the "true sinker" come to me and it took time to get them to surface. Air will rise, that's your buoy. Filling the lungs and not the stomach will certainly help, and expanding the lungs will be key.

One thing you can do as a test is go to deeper zone of pool, start in vertical position, fill lungs and hold your air, then release your body to the water, fall forward - no toning or tension in the body, head, arms, legs hang completely relaxed. I suspect your shoulders will be near the surface, but body will be near vertical. This should only take about 10 secs to fall into equilibrium, but don't exhale in the process, just hold the air. Key here is release all tension in the body and discover where water and gravity place "your" body.

Stuart
I'll try that Monday. I think I had a minor concussion on Tuesday. Didn't swim well on Wednesday, headache, skipped swimming yesterday and today, biked briefly yesterday, ran today, feeling somewhat better.

The test is to relax the whole body like a rag doll, right? Not to do Superman to try and throw centre of gravity forward? With a huge breath in me, of course.
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  #35  
Old 03-18-2016
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Yes, but don't throw, just gently fall forward. Not superman. superman requires some tone and muscle engagement. Relax and just hang, let the water position you. You will bob a bit and when the body settles and becomes still, that's your signature - center of buoyancy verses center of mass. Draw imaginary line from jaw to ankle - what angle did you settle into (surface being zero degrees)? Do two or three times to assure consistency. If not consistent, you are engaging something.

Stuart
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  #36  
Old 03-19-2016
lloyddinma lloyddinma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post

Distribution of body density determines balance. Overall density determines flit vs "sink".
Coach Stuart,

this is what I was getting at. "Sinkers" are swimmers with unique density distribution. People who are muscular or lanky are denser. :) But I believe now it cam be solved.

I read your USMS article wrt High Turnover vs The Right Turnover. Some of it was helpful, while some was a little ahead of my current level.

But I found your Joel Dorfan video analysis... that was great! Similarly, now that I am spearing deeper as a focal point, (after my first video feedback) I still notice a tendency to go flat on my breathing cycle. I sense a subconscious attempt to stay closer to the surface to able to stick my head out easily.

Cheers.
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  #37  
Old 03-19-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Yes, but don't throw, just gently fall forward. Not superman. superman requires some tone and muscle engagement. Relax and just hang, let the water position you. You will bob a bit and when the body settles and becomes still, that's your signature - center of buoyancy verses center of mass. Draw imaginary line from jaw to ankle - what angle did you settle into (surface being zero degrees)? Do two or three times to assure consistency. If not consistent, you are engaging something.

Stuart
OK, relaxation, I get. What I want to know is should I attempt to get the centre of mass as far forward as possible (when described in the horizontal prone position) by getting into the Superman position assuming I can stay horizontal, which is unlikely? I expect the centre of mass to move forward with my "hands up" position from below the belly button to somewhat superior to this in the anatomical position, but expect this shift not to be quite able to reach the centre of buoyancy, which for me is likely somewhere just north of the diaphragm at my hugest belly inspiration.

The result of this mismatch of loci of opposing forces (buoyancy upwards, centred at the centre of buoyancy, lowish thorax; force of gravity downwards, on centre of mass, mid abdomen) is likely to cause a lever which rotates the body towards the vertical position assuming my breath is big enough to hold my vertical body in flotation with my scalp at the surface, i.e the buoyancy force exceeds the weight force. Or mass of water displaced is more than my body mass.

Or should I just drop my arms, or flop them relaxed to wherever they end up? But then I abandon any attempt to achieve balance by static anatomical manipulation.

I know you seem to be suggesting the latter, but I thought I would try to maximise the chances of approximating the horizontal position, slim though they might seem.

Last edited by sclim : 03-19-2016 at 04:55 AM.
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  #38  
Old 03-19-2016
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No manipulation - fall into weightlessness. Allow waist to bend (no plank), arms and legs just hang, head hangs. Just release body to the water
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  #39  
Old 03-24-2016
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Lloyd,

Breathing without interrupting your stroke, lifting head or bending body is a skill; getting a quicker air exchange requires practice once timing has been established.

I'm discussing from a coaching context, not my personal preference - although I have a full tank of air as recovery arm exits at hip. Whether new or novice swimmer, or a very experienced swimmer relearning breath position and timing, I address both the same. The longer the swimmer takes to get air, the greater the chances for head position errors. I used "often" not "always" on long breath that interrupts rhythm, not only stunting recovery arm, but likely triggers low side arm to move to keep head high and body stable to inhale - both can easily interrupt stroke rhythm. Much like a late breath too, i.e body begins to rotate first, then head rotates/chases shoulder to air. "Often" when I see late and long breath, it looks like a swimmer's head bangs between both shoulders to get air; timing and duration are off.

We all will end up with nuances, longer or shorter breath cycle - all of which include balance and male/female aquatic signature. I have heavy hips, late or long breath, I will find more water than air, especially in lumpy open water conditions.

Stuart
Coach Stuart

You say that you have a furll tank of air as your recovery arm exits at hip. Just where in the stroke cycle do you actually take that breath? One coach says not to breathe while the stroking arm is moving. Also one post says to take the breath right after the catch. If you do that, isn't the stroking arm already moving? I am kind of confused as to exactly where one actually takes the breath.

Sherry
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  #40  
Old 03-24-2016
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Sherry,

how about inhaling as soon as your mouth clears surface and just after last air pushed out (best just before below surface). Wasn't it Terry wo wrote: You can't breath too early!?

(Where in the stroke's chain this might happen might have been your real question. Think this is SR-dependent and -as many/most things in swimming- matter of some individual tweak work. But you know, I'm not a coach.)

Best regards,
Werner
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