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  #31  
Old 05-09-2013
Rincewind Rincewind is offline
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Originally Posted by Mike from NS View Post
Rincewind,

The Shinji wrist flick is real indeed. Shinji explained this with diagrams a few years ago .... at least a while ago. He explained it was a way to help "spring" the elbow up and forward to line up for the spear before the next stroke. It takes a while to get used to it but it works once you have mastered it. Give it a try. Eventually we will all be flicking our wrists and become recognized as "the swimming flickers" ;-)
Mike
Do you have the reference to it somewhere?

To me it seems like any extraneous movement is counter productive. And not just in swimming but in any sporting activity. But maybe seeing the actual explanation will help me understand this.
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  #32  
Old 05-09-2013
tomoy tomoy is offline
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I too think you're misinterpreting LadyFish's paragraph - it's taken out of context and, well...wrong, but I don't want to argue these details. Let's focus on the positives.

Moving on the the video - it looks like a pretty natural swimmer at work. I can see the hard work you've put into focusing on technique, it's better than most I see in recreational pools. It's much better than a donkey! You're breathing is better than average too, and on both sides - nice. I can tell you're working on patient lead hand - your left side is a little better than your right in this regard. Same thing for the left elbow and its recovery.

Speaking in Shinji language, compare his head position with yours - he's mostly under water. I think I can see about 2" of your head in the air. Watch his butt (:-P) how it skims along the surface, as well as his calves and heels. Watch yours (in the video :-) and it looks like your butt is just about an inch underwater, but your feet are probably 6-8" down, hard to tell from this angle. Look at Shinji's 2-beat kick. It's mostly stillness. I applaud your attempts to swim like him. The video is very helpful to see where you can go from here. It might not seem like a lot, but an inch here, an inch there is what makes for a smooth Shinji-like vessel in the water - I have no doubt you'll get the propulsion part.
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  #33  
Old 05-10-2013
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
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Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
Mike

If I remember correctly, Shinji used the term wrist snap, and it was suggested, by Terry, I think, that a more idiomatic term in English would be flick. However, I am fairly sure that Shinji's wrist snap or flick happens under the water and is not visible above the surface. It is, I think, a way of adding a bit of extra oomph to the finish, and helping to lift the elbow out.
Hi Richard,

You are absolutely correct ... my error ! Not flick but snap. So I guess we will be known as swimming snappers !! ;-)

I had a look back and found Shinji's video and still shots that I was thinking of. (This is all was around late November and early December 2008.) And he clearly calls the motion "snap". Have a look at this : Underwater Finish for Faster Freestyle - 速く泳ぐための水中フィニッシュ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmTkE...=6&gl=JP&hl=ja

This may be what you would like to see Rincewind. Also look at the thread about his video, the "Underwater finish", and also look at this from a connected "freestyle" conference thread called "Shinji 9 stroke very helpful, thanx" from about December 1, 2008 : post # 18

When your wrist enters the water, you will change the angle to horizontal. This is when another hand starts to anchor. The leading hand moves forward horizontally with body rotation, so the angle of the hand slants (from 3:00 to 3:30/3:45) as the body glides.

There are some very valuable images by Shinji which didn't copy correctly for me. It's been a rough day here ... :-(

His wrist snap also applies to the foot snap for the kick.

I'm feeling donkey like about now ... so I had better stop here !!

Mike
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Last edited by Mike from NS : 05-10-2013 at 12:41 AM.
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  #34  
Old 05-10-2013
Rincewind Rincewind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from NS View Post
Hi Richard,

This may be what you would like to see Rincewind. Also look at the thread about his video, the "Underwater finish", and also look at this from a connected "freestyle" conference thread called "Shinji 9 stroke very helpful, thanx" from about December 1, 2008 : post # 18

Mike
I see. He basically breaks down the pull into stages, last one is called the 'snap'.

He executes it in one smooth motion though, I really dont see any 'snapping' there. It just looks like a really well executed elbow lead recovery to me. I think it is all just a matter of terminology.
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  #35  
Old 05-10-2013
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
I see. He basically breaks down the pull into stages, last one is called the 'snap'.

He executes it in one smooth motion though, I really dont see any 'snapping' there. It just looks like a really well executed elbow lead recovery to me. I think it is all just a matter of terminology.
I expect his action is so smooth as you say, that the snap is very subtle and difficult to see as we might expect from the word. Snap to us is a crisp and almost violent action. The action of the snap is supposed to assist the drawing the hand from the water in that it almost springs the elbow forward, dragging the hand with it. The foot flick or snap is similar I think for the 2BK.

Mike
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  #36  
Old 05-10-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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That snap is a mandatory component for a lot of swimmers, including me.

Literally, that purchases you distance per stroke (and comes slightly in the way of elevating the stroke rate). When correctly done, probably due to constant acceleration of the hand, it was reported as being the most propulsive phase of the arm pull, at least by professor Ernest W. Maglischo. The snap itself isn't what's responsible for this. What precedes the snap is also very important.

When wrongly executed, ie overdone passed a certain point (ie, when the hand starts recovering, if you continue snapping), you get scenes such as our good friend Swimust. That's normal. If you continue pushing once the hand starts recovering, you get funny exits. Sometimes it goes outward, sometimes inward.

That's the reason why at first sight, I didn't think it was a bad flaw. It indicates that the swimmer is productively engaged into learning something that's good. It was just about time that he finally sees himself, as like we coaches had all said, beginners have wrong proprioception by default, unless you did balai dancing, gymnastic, diving, or other of the likes...

The cool thing with Swimust is that it went (now it ain't as bad) way way off toward the center line. That indicates that the final portion of the arm pull could be oriented toward the wrong direction. Because in reality the exit (snap or not) should really roll outward, in a nice sweeping motion.

Here's my snap. Look closely on the first few strokes, as I am eager to get off the wall and buy me some early DPS. It goes snap snap then I probably smoothened it a bit. The left hand keeps snaping in a more apparent way (little 2much in the inward, but I was out of shape there, with no warmup). That snap feeling as far as I'm concerned, is similar to trying to remove a glove in one single snap. But it has to move outward though, as it's also the trigger for arm recovery. The hand is the arm's brain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00c4lhZZbK8

I can't swim without this. Without this I'd easily loose a couple of stroke. And as the rate increase, it's important to hold on to this.

In fact, I believe the snap is so important, that I'm probably one of the only coaches in the world to propose that during the single arm drill, passive arm should accumulate time learning how to snap. Gives a whole new feeling to the single arm drill ;-)

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 05-10-2013 at 03:23 AM.
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  #37  
Old 05-10-2013
Ken B Ken B is offline
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Charles your pull buoy freestyle exercise where you advised to rush the hip out of the way of the stroking arm is the latest timely advice I've got from this forum. I like practising it wearing pool fins for resistance and not kicking. When I take the fins off my feet have to do a modest flick to achieve the same result. Even though I'm nursing injured shoulders my freestyle improvement has been magic, one of the plateaus we hope for, thank you. It is of course exactly what Shinji does.
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  #38  
Old 05-10-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Ken, you're right on.

Which drill do you think I use when people are injured.

They rotate until they get dizzy :)

And yes, Isolated Rotation is body rotation using final portion + possibly flicks as only means of propulsion.

Truth is that I don't swim, since 2010, lack of time. But as soon as I resume, and it will be this summer, I'll be studying all these variations. I'm sure it's doable with a nice 2bk, must feel real good too.

Thanks for your feedback!

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 05-10-2013 at 04:14 AM.
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  #39  
Old 05-10-2013
swimust swimust is offline
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@ Mike, Richard, Rincewind,
I will be bold, Charles teached me that ;) and say that its only your fault that you were not familiar with the "Shinji underwater arm snap" until now. I don't know if its a fault, but I was calling it this way all the time. not "wrist flick" which is wrong but "arm snap".
And... I wasn't doing it on the right arm.

NOW!!... to business!
Its getting clearer all the time. Just watched videos and I think I found the source of this ugly stroke.
When I start arm acceleration on left side, I do not use muscles in the upper arm. I just connect two points. One is the top corner of the deltoid and the other is the elbow. The upper arm just moves (not pushing!) along the two points.
On my right arm I am using upper arm muscles when I start acceleration, and I do not work between the two points mentioned above.
Its at the start of the arm acceleration (when other elbow got in water).
If I am correct then problem solved and VERY EASILY. what an elegant solution. just awareness.
less is more

I predict a full change in my next video :)
It almost looks like I am framing a scenario here. I swear I don't. Just working with my head and my memory.
positive madness :)

30 minutes later of posting this... ELBOW FULCRUM?! is that the real problem? will see in the pool.
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Last edited by swimust : 05-10-2013 at 04:45 AM.
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  #40  
Old 05-10-2013
swimust swimust is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomoy View Post
I too think you're misinterpreting LadyFish's paragraph - it's taken out of context and, well...wrong, but I don't want to argue these details. Let's focus on the positives.

Moving on the the video - it looks like a pretty natural swimmer at work. I can see the hard work you've put into focusing on technique, it's better than most I see in recreational pools. It's much better than a donkey! You're breathing is better than average too, and on both sides - nice. I can tell you're working on patient lead hand - your left side is a little better than your right in this regard. Same thing for the left elbow and its recovery.

Speaking in Shinji language, compare his head position with yours - he's mostly under water. I think I can see about 2" of your head in the air. Watch his butt (:-P) how it skims along the surface, as well as his calves and heels. Watch yours (in the video :-) and it looks like your butt is just about an inch underwater, but your feet are probably 6-8" down, hard to tell from this angle. Look at Shinji's 2-beat kick. It's mostly stillness. I applaud your attempts to swim like him. The video is very helpful to see where you can go from here. It might not seem like a lot, but an inch here, an inch there is what makes for a smooth Shinji-like vessel in the water - I have no doubt you'll get the propulsion part.
you give many good points to work on. I found how to twist my body only yesterday and now I can work on other things. First I need to fix the right arm stroke.
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