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  #11  
Old 09-24-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Oh I see, and you were referring to the UK probably because the OP lives there. Now I understand (I'm a little slow some times).

I really don't know who picked up on Ian Smith's business in the UK. He used to be very popular there. He'd run a business out of a Swim Shack or something... Maybe Terry would know though...
The contact details is Jai Evans (senior coach)

www.totalimmersion.co.uk
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  #12  
Old 09-24-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Oh Joy, thanks.

Price. My take.

At the U where I coach (for 20$ per hour, call this cheap labor coaching cause that's what it is), you can purchase a private lession for $50 CAD + taxes. So the total is $57.50, CAD.

This is about the cheapest private class option available, which guaranties a certain level of competence.

Now. No video at all included in this price. So you come in, I tell you, you'd better understand what I mean, you leave with your memory, and tassit. Good luck! No followup, except if you want to purchase another hour. Do you think for one second that I'll follow up by email whilst earning $20 for these works? Forget it. And I won't bring my camera neither. This is mine. I bought it with my own money, and more importantly, I've put over hundred hours of practice in operating it, along with various software. And anyway, in 60min, we just don't have time to start swapping memory card with a computer etc... 60min is too short.

I'd expect a video analysis with stroke correction session to be at least 90min in time, especially if there's some overdub feedback added to it, I mean live on the spot. 60min is just not enough. In this studio, you have an endless pool, ie a great environment for focusing on technique. You have video system that's state of the art, + the human resources to operate it.

Is all this worth double our plan little 50$ session with no video given by the first available instructor? I think so yes. So, from 50$/hr we're not at 50$ for 30min. Therefore I'd expect a full 90min session with technology, endless pool, certified and passionate resource to be at least $150 (at least).

I did as Gary though. I offer cheaper option coaching that people just *love*. 4 person of the same level, 50$ each for 2h, I leave with 150$ in my pocket for 2hours of work which is not exaggerated, and people leave with significant stroke correction work + some video clip files as long as they bring a USB key. It's not exaggerated as this 2hours really costs me at least 3, if we include the travel time, the time to set up my 27inch iMac computer etc etc... So I'm down to 50$ per hour, which is the rate under which most freelancer regardless of the field would avoid to go.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 09-24-2012 at 06:08 PM.
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  #13  
Old 09-24-2012
swim2Bfree swim2Bfree is offline
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An interesting and related discussion is: What are the qualifications for becoming a TI coach, which justify these price points?
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  #14  
Old 09-24-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Didn't you find my answers to this relevant? (though I ignore pretty much everything about TI's rates)...
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  #15  
Old 09-24-2012
CoachGaryF CoachGaryF is offline
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Hi Swim2BFree,

I can't speak for the TI coaches I don't know, but the ones I've worked with and know reasonably well had pretty impressive credentials as swimmers and coaches prior to being involved in Total Immersion. And as part of TI have demonstrated first class teaching skills and an ongoing interest in refining and improving their skills, as coaches and as swimmers.

I'm not sure how to quantify those things. I live in South Florida, and there are TONS of multi-sport coaches who don't know jack about swimming and think nothing of charging $100/hr for private lessons. You would literally be better off getting advice from a 14 year old age group swimmer. I'm confident I can do in 1 hour what few coaches can do in 5. So in the long run my clients save money. One of my students (2-time Kona qualifier after working with me) had taken 20 lessons from another coach prior to coming to me. Over those 20 lessons he improved his IronMan split by 3 minutes. After 3 lessons with me his time dropped 17 minutes. As a competitive swimming coach my teams won numerous conference championships, had kids (and relays) earn All-American status, re-wrote the conference record board (literally--within three years of joining our conference our high school broke every record), and I served as our USA Swimming zone coach a couple of years. More gratifying to me: I am remembered by my swimmers as the coach who cared about everyone. Probably my favorite coaching success? The kid who got third at our conference meet in an event where he had no business being top 8. Three of my former swimmers are TI coaches, and I would argue that one of them (Leah Nyikes, in Cleveland, Ohio) is among the best TI has to offer.

Most of my closest TI colleagues have similar stories. And what shines through is an absolute love for what we do. None seem to chase money the way the USAT tri coaches do down here. One tri coach is infamous for this line: "I could answer your question but I'd have to charge you." Compare that to this forum, where free advice abounds.

Despite all that, our certification process (which is probably not as rigorous as it used to be, as prospective coaches had to intern and serve as assistants at LOTS of workshops to prove their mettle) is WAY more demanding than USAT, a 3-day course that purportedly certifies you to coach three sports. The same goes for swim coaching certification: you can move up the food chain of American Swim Coaches Association (ASCA) certifications without ever having someone observe or document your coaching skills. Get lucky with a few gifted athletes and you're a Level 4 coach. I know ASCA Level 5 coaches (their highest level) who are such lazy careerists that I'd never send my kid to them. A client of mine had previously taken a couple of lessons from one of Dara Torres's coaches in Coral Springs (she just missed making her sixth Olympic team this year at age 45). He was THRILLED that he was scheduled to have the coach of an Olympian available to him. So what did the coach do? Sat in a deck chair, tossed the client a kick board and, when asked if he was going to get in the water, said "I can see you fine from here." With the bar set that low, and people paying good money for it because they don't know what they're missing, I feel like I undercharge.

Gary
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  #16  
Old 09-24-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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I have a question, but I don't want to deviate from the main topic too much... Worst case I will create a new thread.

Here's my question:

What are the terms of use for TI-Drills? Single Arm drill is in the DMZ (demilitarized zone). But the spear switch probably is not.

I once was aware of a coach here down town Montreal who was giving full TI-Clinics, without being certified at all. That, I believe, is a no no.

But what if you just want to use a drill. What would be the terms of use? For instance my own brewed drills are of public domain, everyone can use them as long as they don't claim having created them, and even there... This would probably put a smile on my face.
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  #17  
Old 09-24-2012
westyswoods westyswoods is offline
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GaryF's most recent post gets to the point of what to expect for the dollar.

To the question of drills, to my knowledge there is no copyright on specific sequences or practices. They surly can be put in a context other than TI. What needs to be questioned is those who claim to be TI certified and are not.

Swim Silent and Be Well
Westy
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  #18  
Old 09-25-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Thanks West.

+1 about Gary's take. What I particularly enjoy though, is this will of still trying to be accessible by offering semi private sessions. As knowledgeable as we endup being, and in spite of the fact we're worth our money, in the end, we don't want end up dealing solely with "posh" swimmers do we? LOL
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  #19  
Old 09-25-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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The other side of the price of coaching is that each student has a very different capacity to be coached, their ability to listen and assimilate as well as their curiosity for the subject.

I find people do things to a scarily similar level left to their own devices, as we reach a satisfactory skill acquired:time invested ratio (there is a great chapter on this in either the talent code or the seven habits of effective people, can't remember which, the latter I think)

To this extent, people who struggle to be coached will find less value in the cost of private tuition and generally benefit more from a regular top up in a group environment.
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  #20  
Old 09-25-2012
Ken B Ken B is offline
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Ken B
Default Dear Charles and Gary

I love your forum contributions. I would happily pay for your lessons. I would go without groceries for them. As a distance learner I trawl the forum gleaning helpful hints but progress would have been so much quicker with good coaching. I tell myself that the journey's the thing and the last six years of swimming, my TI time, has been marvellous. Lots of progress and some frustration. As a belated example, Gary's recent throw away comment that rotation is not worth 'squat' or was it 'zip', if it's not connected to a solid catch sent me off to the pool to experiment. I had the idea that this was a naughty thought and that we associated hip drive with the spear and tried to pretend the stroke would sort itself out. I found of course that catch and hip set the timing for the whole stroke and that I was surging down the pool and that my spear felt fine. Now I cant wait for the great outdoors to warm up and for even better open water swimming. I can do without some of the philosophical stuff on the site but my family consider that I have had a spiritual bypass so I may be wrong about that, swimming is as close as I get to a moving meditation.

Thanks again
Ken
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