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  #1  
Old 10-04-2017
Rajan Rajan is offline
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Default Two Beat kick

Hi!

I wonder whether we can apply pressure on the water (downward kick) and stroking in through forearm and hand together. In other words - Does timing of both remains same?

Regards

Rajan
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  #2  
Old 10-04-2017
novaswimmer novaswimmer is offline
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Originally Posted by Rajan View Post
Hi!

I wonder whether we can apply pressure on the water (downward kick) and stroking in through forearm and hand together. In other words - Does timing of both remains same?

Regards

Rajan
If you look at Terry's video (underwater footage), you will notice that the downward kick and the same-side underwater pulling arm movement are linked together and occur at, or nearly at, the same time. The subtleties of the timing (which one is actually initiated -- the kick or the pull -- and which one assists) can be more difficult to see or feel. I'm still working on that myself.

When I began to learn the 2-beat kick, I thought more in terms of associating the spear with the downward kick, but since spear, kick, rotate and pull all happen nearly simultaneously or at least within a short time, it probably doesn't matter which you link together for the purposes of beginning to learn the two-beat kick. I will let the experts comment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4

If you look at the video starting at frame 1:18, you'll see Terry starts his spear and pull just a millisecond before the kick. But that all might change if he speeds up.

Last edited by novaswimmer : 10-04-2017 at 05:49 PM.
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  #3  
Old 10-04-2017
daveblt daveblt is offline
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The past year I am focusing more on the upbeat of the kick as my arm on same side enters the water rather than the down kick .For me it makes my stroke feel better .At that moment I am long and balanced with my arm spear and raised leg on the same side. Then the downbeat just happens on it's own .

Dave
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  #4  
Old 10-04-2017
sclim sclim is offline
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I learned TI and 2-beat starting 5 years ago. I still have this bad 2 beat kick habit that I am having the devil of a time eliminating. On my right arm spear after the entry I have always had a natural clean left foot kick. but on my left arm spear the right kick is preceded by a small left sided "downward pre-kick flick". If I go super-slow and really focus on the clean single right kick I can suppress the pre-kick. Otherwise it tends to sneak back in. I've been struggling to get rid of this for over a year.

Obviously this is a symptom of poor balance and struggling for re-gaining this balance. But I am not aware which balance is off. Is it the balance on the right edge? So the double kick is done while I'm still on the left edge trying to get me over to the right edge down, which is the side I'm having balance issues with?

Or is it that I'm having trouble on the left edge balance, and this is the side during which the double kick occurs.

As an aside I have habitually been a right side only breather, and only in the last 2 years practiced and developed the discipline to breath equally and symmetrically on the left as well as right. Strangely, it seems when I get the left breathing done right, it is always cleaner and smoother (low in the water, mouth half submerged etc.) than the right, which still tends to be contaminated with my decades old problem habit of rotating the mouth higher out of the water than it needs to, and a premature pushing down on the left spear hand (likely related to this inappropriate need to raise my mouth higher than the waterline to breathe). Although when tired and air-hungry I will bias again to right side breathing. I wonder if my poor right leg kick has anything to do with this old breathing problem, or is it a totally separate issue?
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  #5  
Old 10-04-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by sclim View Post
I learned TI and 2-beat starting 5 years ago. I still have this bad 2 beat kick habit that I am having the devil of a time eliminating. On my right arm spear after the entry I have always had a natural clean left foot kick. but on my left arm spear the right kick is preceded by a small left sided "downward pre-kick flick". If I go super-slow and really focus on the clean single right kick I can suppress the pre-kick. Otherwise it tends to sneak back in. I've been struggling to get rid of this for over a year.
If you watch this underwater video of Terry swimming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4
I think you will see that he has something of the same problem you are mentioning above. (See about 50 s). One of the hardest things to sort through when self-coaching is to decide which problems are more important and should be addressed first, and which ones can be postponed. Do you have the feeling that this quirk in your kick is impacting your balance? If so, it may be worth addressing, but Terry seems to be able to swim the way the rest of us can only dream of, even though this issue still seems to be visible in his kick
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  #6  
Old 10-04-2017
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
If you watch this underwater video of Terry swimming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4
I think you will see that he has something of the same problem you are mentioning above. (See about 50 s). One of the hardest things to sort through when self-coaching is to decide which problems are more important and should be addressed first, and which ones can be postponed. Do you have the feeling that this quirk in your kick is impacting your balance? If so, it may be worth addressing, but Terry seems to be able to swim the way the rest of us can only dream of, even though this issue still seems to be visible in his kick
Haha, you're right Danny, it is difficult to intelligently prioritize efforts when self coaching, and yes, he does have that double kick, and in fact there's a hint of it quite often at other times, though not as obvious as at 50 seconds. Makes me feel a little better.

But Terry is obviously such a well balanced swimmer that his double kick is a harmless quirk. I'm such a slow crappy TI swimmer I must assume that there is a strong possibility that my quirk is not harmless but rather a link to or at least an indicator of some balance problem.

Either way, harmless or not, no way to find out except to identify it as a problem to eliminate, both by direct efforts to consciously suppress the pre-kick (for instance, trying consciously to keep the cocked right foot cocked until the appropriate kick is due -- can't do a left pre-kick while the right foot is still held cocked high), and by indirect means, i.e. being very sensitive to any evidence or clue of ongoing imbalance. Trying to consciously suppress the habit may also pay off in unmasking my imbalance in a sensation or some other clue that I can identify.

Of course, I'll do all the usual TI strategies, focus on single skills, keep track of strokes per length etc.

Another kick imprecision I'm trying to refine on is to lessen the amplitude of my kick, to lessen the knee-bend/increase hip and trunk origin of kick, and to lessen outward/sideway splaying of feet during the kick.

Last edited by sclim : 10-04-2017 at 10:51 PM.
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  #7  
Old 10-05-2017
daveblt daveblt is offline
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Sclim , another thing that has helped my kick is I'm making sure to be aware that my legs and feet are always fairly close together and being controlled through my core and hips .If they splay out to far then they feel as if they have are disconnected and have a mind of their own ,so I'm trying to get rid of old habits.

Dave
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  #8  
Old 10-05-2017
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by daveblt View Post
Sclim , another thing that has helped my kick is I'm making sure to be aware that my legs and feet are always fairly close together and being controlled through my core and hips .If they splay out to far then they feel as if they have are disconnected and have a mind of their own ,so I'm trying to get rid of old habits.

Dave
Yeah, that's basically what I meant in my description in the last paragraph. Funny, now that I think about it a little, rather than risk fragmenting my attention (TI -- only focus on one thing at a time) it may actually correct some flailing around, and may be helpful in focussing on balance and movement of one area, i.e. within the TI mandate, and may actually help break my right sided double kick problem habit.

I should have added that I am aware of the help that strict wide tracking of the hand entry and stroking gives to stability, and that frees up the need for the legs to go wide -- so, I'll be looking to this as a frequent focus too. But probably not as a focus at the same time as the legs.
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  #9  
Old 11-17-2017
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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sclim,

I'm late to this discussion, but you might want to try swimming a little with long fins to increase awareness of hips/kick/rotation. I usually swim 50m with both fins, 50m with left fin only, 50m with right fin only, then 50m with both fins again.

I start with both fins by kicking slowly with hands out front in streamline. I really focus on feeling my hips rotate in response to each separate kick--in other words, as my right leg kicks down, I feel my right hip move up. As the right hip moves up, my body is rotating onto its left side--so, the kick initiates/assists in rotation. Fins really help me FEEL this hip rotation. Then taking off one fin helps me try to match that feeling with a finless leg, too.

I started 2BK training a few years ago by focusing on a preparatory pre-lift (raise the leg slightly to prepare for downkick). After spending just 200m a day with fins, I am now aware that there IS no recovery or upkick at all when the 2BK is done correctly. I'll try to explain:

As my right leg kicks down, my right hip moves up and my body rotates onto its left side. My legs at this point are slightly separated, since I have moved the right leg down. What this means is that the LEFT leg is now "above" the right, and ready to kick "down" (up and down are relative rather than absolute, since the body is rotated to some degree).

With my next kick, the left leg moves down past the right leg (no need for a prep since it's already "above" the right leg), the left hip moves up, and my body rotates onto its right side.

The result for me has been the gradual realization that the main role of the kick is to assist the same-side hip to rotate upward. More importantly, the ONLY role for my legs between kicks is to remain still, within the slipstream of the body and not splayed out too far. Each leg is then perfectly positioned for its kick with no need for the leg to recover from that kick. At all.

This leg stillness does seem to load more work onto the core. Just yesterday another swimmer told me I didn't look like I was working at all when I swam. I assured her that I really AM working--very hard--but that I'm working on maintaining body position rather than on pushing harder in propulsive movements.

If you try using fins like that, I'd be very interested to hear how it goes for you. As I said, I do that for 200m in my tune-up pretty much every day.
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Last edited by Tom Pamperin : 11-17-2017 at 06:28 PM.
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  #10  
Old 11-17-2017
ti97
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
sclim,

Each leg is then perfectly positioned for its kick with no need for the leg to recover from that kick. At all.
Tom, Excellent point that you make.....it's a flick and then relax that leg.
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