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  #11  
Old 01-05-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
That video drives me nuts. Listen to the video at 3:24 for the next few seconds....

"Remember if you get the catch correct, it puts a lot of pressure...a lot of strain on that shoulder". I call BS on that. A good catch should not cause strain on the shoulder...but this is the way "conventional swimming" teaches it.

Here is a video of a 64 year old woman...the woman I blogged about...doing a catch that places no strain on the shoulder using the technique that coach dave demonstrates in his dry land video.

This is that drill taken horizontally in the water.

http://steelcityendurance.smugmug.co...984695_kj2qxcT

I'm sure that every one of you is stronger than this lady..strength is not a factor. It's slightly possible that she may be more flexible in some ways...but she is 64 years old with previous shoulder injuries from a car accident. All the strength & mobility discussion here so far is a red herring for learning this movement.

Sure at some point strength and flexibility will help you...but not for learning this technique. A open mind, an empty pool lane, and lots of patience will get you there.
Why does it drive you nuts? Salt n Pepa said a body like Arnold with a Denzel face. Take the learning and discard the misinformation. You are right about the 3.24 comment but the rest of the video has some value.

It shows clearly the catch movement in the drill and I think the point about being too far out or too far in causing weak positions is also a good one.
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  #12  
Old 01-05-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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That misinformation is critic al to the videos message. It encourages impingment, it encourages an unbalanced stroke, the model swimmer has terrible body position to emulate.

Hemakes it look hard, which its not. Hard as in strenuous. There are pieces that are good, but too much other stuff that most swimmers can't recognize as needing to be discarded. It's (yet another) source if potential shoulder damaging information.

He advises to have the hand as close to the surface as possible...this causes several problems with balance, as can be clearly seen in the video. yet when you read the comments, it seems even the narrator didn't notice that there was a balance issue.

Presumably, starting with a high hand allows you to get some effort behind the movement...but that's exactly the effort and location that puts stress on the shoulder joint when it's at its weakest position...fully abducted in the "overhead" position.

Watch coach daves video, watch my video, the catch is not physically strenuous. The above video again takes elite stroke mechanics and tries to teach it to the average swimmer or triathlete. I can tell you how many swimmers complain of difficulty with what they show, and then its so hard to break.
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Last edited by CoachSuzanne : 01-05-2012 at 11:41 AM.
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  #13  
Old 01-05-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Eh...I had another comment but the browser deleted it. Time for me to work on some other projects for the day.
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
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Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #14  
Old 01-05-2012
arunks arunks is offline
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Coach Susanne I understand your point. I see that elites are able to keep the hands very close to the surface of the water while initiating the catch which may be difficult to achieve. Probably a better place would be to enter the water and extend forward slightly deeper so that one is able to keep the elbow high.
I think this is a good article to read to clarify a few of the points. Click here.
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  #15  
Old 01-05-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arunks View Post
Coach Susanne I understand your point. I see that elites are able to keep the hands very close to the surface of the water while initiating the catch which may be difficult to achieve. Probably a better place would be to enter the water and extend forward slightly deeper so that one is able to keep the elbow high.
I think this is a good article to read to clarify a few of the points. Click here.
Did you watch the videos on smug mug? What do you think?

She displays greater degrees of internal rotation with significant ABduction of the arm...even with limited fliexibility. The cousin's article is excellent in that it acknoledges differences in elite vs. masters flexibility. But the photo shown of the triathlete at the bottom, doesn't display poor flexibility, it displays poor technique.

that's the whole point. He doesn't need massive flexibilty or strength to have a great, functional catch. he only needs to listen to coach dave. (has anyone watched any of the other videos posted besides the original video?)
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle


Last edited by CoachSuzanne : 01-05-2012 at 12:24 PM.
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  #16  
Old 01-05-2012
arunks arunks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Did you watch the videos on smug mug? What do you think?
I think the video reiterates the point i mentioned to spear a little deep.But i feel if we spear the hand too deep then we don't get the purchase from the water.(A good catch).The spear depth is a sweet spot between too shallow and too deep a spear.
P.S I was impressed by the lady doing this at her age.Inspiring!!
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  #17  
Old 01-05-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arunks View Post
I think the video reiterates the point i mentioned to spear a little deep.But i feel if we spear the hand too deep then we don't get the purchase from the water.(A good catch).The spear depth is a sweet spot between too shallow and too deep a spear.
P.S I was impressed by the lady doing this at her age.Inspiring!!
There is indeed a sweet spot, and good for you for recognizing that.

There is a way to "back into" the catch from the position shown at the bottom of the cousins article, and that's what Terry's "soft hook" does.
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #18  
Old 01-05-2012
arunks arunks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
There is a way to "back into" the catch from the position shown at the bottom of the cousins article, and that's what Terry's "soft hook" does.
I have tried to spear deep but for me I have found it much easier and balanced by spearing a bit shallow.But I am curious to know about the soft hook and how to get a good catch from the soft hook position..

Last edited by arunks : 01-05-2012 at 01:21 PM.
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  #19  
Old 01-05-2012
arunks arunks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
(has anyone watched any of the other videos posted besides the original video?)
I had seen the video of Dave explaining the catch before but I had one question in my mind i.e about the front quadrant timing.
I felt a better anchorage could be got if I practiced the Early Vertical Forearm and I could get more leverage when the upsweep is connected with the hip rotation .That's when I came across Coach Brian's skatch drill (mentioned it in another post.)In EVF I felt I had more time to set up the catch as I initiate the catch early and the surge in momentum was quite evident.

Regarding SR and SL when using EVF Coach Brian's reply:
" Remember that everything in swimming represents some sort of compromise.
When you initiate an early catch with a vertical forearm, there is less remaining for the arm to travel through the stroke. This can result in less time for the stroke itself, a faster stroke rate.
With a slow stroke rate and a longer glide, you will always be slowing down between strokes. A faster stroke rate might result in a shorter stroke, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you can handle a higher stroke rate, all other things being equal, you will conserve energy by maintaining speed. If you lose your form or tire with a higher rate, you lose the advantage of the higher rate. That's where the compromise comes in.
You can also maintain stroke length by applying more pressure during the stroke. This can also cause fatigue and loss of form.
A better catch is more efficient because it pits more of your energy into forward motion. Your job as a swimmer is to figure out the compromise puzzle to give you the most pleasing combination of stoke rate, length, end effort. A better catch should be part of the solution. "
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  #20  
Old 01-08-2012
DD_l_enclume DD_l_enclume is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Here is a video of a 64 year old woman...the woman I blogged about...doing a catch that places no strain on the shoulder using the technique that coach dave demonstrates in his dry land video.

This is that drill taken horizontally in the water.

http://steelcityendurance.smugmug.co...984695_kj2qxcT
I almost missed that post. It deserves its own thread.
That lady is amazing. Looks so relaxed.

I have a question about this drill (and Dave's one) : that woman demonstrates an outstanding catch with her vertical forearm.
But it seems that since rotation is used to reach the catch position, the rotation is almost done when the the arm is going to be adducted.
Am I right ? Is it how it should be done ?
I was under the impression that the adduction should occur *during* the rotation, not after.
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