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  #1  
Old 11-26-2011
arunks arunks is offline
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arunks
Default Shoulder Inner Rotation

I recently got the TT. Now I am working on my technique at a relaxed pace. There is an issue that has been bothering me about the Catch.

I understand about the patient lead hand waiting for the hip rotation to set up the catch, but for the vertical forearm or high elbow, when I work on many of the stroke thoughts like the open armpit or 10 degree trick(extended arm with elbow on the side) taught by Coach Dave there is bound to be the shoulder inner rotation. I was wondering how it is possible to get an efficient catch without shoulder inner rotation.
Also if shoulder rotation is needed to what extent should the rotation be to avoid injuries and when should the shoulder rotation or elbow flexion occur. Before the hand entering the water(as in 10 degree trick) or after it?

P.S I came across an interesting article regarding shoulder inner rotation where they say that avoiding shoulder inner rotation can cause a chronically elevated scapula which can increase the chances of shoulder injury. What are your views?
Also in the 2nd part and 3rd part they talk about preventive measures.

Last edited by arunks : 11-26-2011 at 01:47 PM. Reason: Added a url
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  #2  
Old 11-26-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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It's impossible to swim without internal rotation of the shoulder joint. I think I posted a similar reply on "andyin norway's" thread. Focus on the soft hook position, anchoring the hand and rotating past it as you spear. Excessive effort or force on high elbow or vertical forearm is guaranteed to cause pain and discomfort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunks View Post
I recently got the TT. Now I am working on my technique at a relaxed pace. There is an issue that has been bothering me about the Catch.

I understand about the patient lead hand waiting for the hip rotation to set up the catch, but for the vertical forearm or high elbow, when I work on many of the stroke thoughts like the open armpit or 10 degree trick(extended arm with elbow on the side) taught by Coach Dave there is bound to be the shoulder inner rotation. I was wondering how it is possible to get an efficient catch without shoulder inner rotation.
Also if shoulder rotation is needed to what extent should the rotation be to avoid injuries and when should the shoulder rotation or elbow flexion occur. Before the hand entering the water(as in 10 degree trick) or after it?

P.S I came across an interesting article regarding shoulder inner rotation where they say that avoiding shoulder inner rotation can cause a chronically elevated scapula which can increase the chances of shoulder injury. What are your views?
Also in the 2nd part and 3rd part they talk about preventive measures.
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #3  
Old 11-27-2011
arunks arunks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
It's impossible to swim without internal rotation of the shoulder joint. I think I posted a similar reply on "andyin norway's" thread. Focus on the soft hook position, anchoring the hand and rotating past it as you spear.
I totally agree with the point on the patient lead hand and weight shifts( balance and streamline) bringing in the forward momentum but by not focusing on the catch are we not taking off a crucial aspect which can bring in momentum and efficiency needed to move the body forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Excessive effort or force on high elbow or vertical forearm is guaranteed to cause pain and discomfort.
So as you say shouldn’t our focus then be on how to have relaxed hands with just enough effort to get the proper catch.

Last edited by arunks : 11-27-2011 at 07:11 AM.
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  #4  
Old 11-27-2011
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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I think by soft hook Suzanne means if your upper arm position is correct, then the lower arm is able to flop into soft hook without a lot of effort.

As long as your elbow bone is pointing somewhere towards the sky not the side wall then this should seem quite a natural move.

I practise it in slow motion sometimes at the end of superman glide so I can observe and refine.
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  #5  
Old 11-28-2011
arunks arunks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
It's impossible to swim without internal rotation of the shoulder joint. I think I posted a similar reply on "andyin norway's" thread. Focus on the soft hook position, anchoring the hand and rotating past it as you spear. Excessive effort or force on high elbow or vertical forearm is guaranteed to cause pain and discomfort.
Thank you Coach Suzanne.Sorry I misunderstood you.I was reading another article regarding catch and I now completely understand your point of recruiting core muscles in the catch phase.Is the soft hook position you are referring to the same as the catch position(which includes the shoulder rotation for setting up the catch) or the extended arm position before the catch... ??Can you explain this soft hook position?

Also I used to apply force in the catch as soon as the forearm drops with the wrist flexion to reach the vertical forearm and then backwards.But by focusing on the body shift I think the arm will easily moves in the vertical forearm.Then I can focus on the force to be applied backwards.I am experimenting on the timing but i still happen to pull forcefully..

Any suggestions on getting this timing perfected like at what point should you initiate the catch...

Last edited by arunks : 11-28-2011 at 12:53 PM.
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  #6  
Old 11-28-2011
arunks arunks is offline
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arunks
Default No Bubbles or whitewash during Catch

I keep hearing in many of the swimming commentaries where there say there is no whitewash or bubbles during the catch.(Recently after watching Sun Yang's 1500m freestyle recently posted)What enables this?I feel it’s the forces they apply during the catch.How should the force be applied during different phases of the catch...

Last edited by arunks : 11-28-2011 at 01:13 PM.
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  #7  
Old 11-28-2011
arunks arunks is offline
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arunks
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I found some of the answers to my questions in another post where Coach Brian says

"Sometimes, I think we over analyze things.

First, I think it's important to understand the purpose of the "catch". The catch sets the forearm in a more vertical position so that it has more traction during the weight shift.

If we agree on that understanding, then the timing is simply that the arm needs to be prepared for more traction during the weight shift, and before any pulling.

The "flop" sounds very much like what I describe as "relaxing the hand toward the elbow". After extending forward with the spearing arm, I allow the hand to drop under my "patient elbow".

For me, the relaxation is key. I spent a lot of time trying to force what a non TI coach called a powerful catch. The effort exerted was both tiring and non-productive. Power applied prior to achieving a vertical forearm is likely to be pushing down on the water. And this pushing down is what makes shoulders tired and susceptible to injury. Relaxing into the catch position takes the strain off the shoulder.

I use a variation of the skate drill to learn the catch position. I call it the Skatch drill. Here's a description of the drill: http://www.totalimmersion.net/compon.../article/6/316 "

Thank you Coach Brian.

Last edited by arunks : 11-29-2011 at 02:21 AM.
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  #8  
Old 11-29-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arunks View Post
I keep hearing in many of the swimming commentaries where there say there is no whitewash or bubbles during the catch.(Recently after watching Sun Yang's 1500m freestyle recently posted)What enables this?I feel it’s the forces they apply during the catch.How should the force be applied during different phases of the catch...
A streamlined "mail slot" entry eliminates bubbles. This means that rotation of the body and recovery arm movement must be coordinated to slip the hand into the water followed by the wrist, forearm and elbow. If they all slide in through teh same hole there will be no bubbles. If the arm "slaps" down on the water all at once due to over reaching or rollign the hips too early, there will be lots of bubbles.
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #9  
Old 11-29-2011
arunks arunks is offline
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arunks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
A streamlined "mail slot" entry eliminates bubbles. This means that rotation of the body and recovery arm movement must be coordinated to slip the hand into the water followed by the wrist, forearm and elbow. If they all slide in through teh same hole there will be no bubbles. If the arm "slaps" down on the water all at once due to over reaching or rollign the hips too early, there will be lots of bubbles.
Regarding a conscious attempt to make a clean hand entry this is what Gary Hall Sr has to say.. A different opinion.What do you think...

"The other old-school habit that bothers me is what I call the modern-toilet-seat-syndrome. Most of us have seen these new toilet seats that have a spring that slows them down and keeps them from slamming against the toilet when dropped. Many swimmers I teach enter their hands into the water just like these new toilet seats. They slow down the arm just before the hand enters the water, hoping to avoid all of those terrible air bubbles they've heard about. The problem is that by slowing their arm recovery and the hand entry, their stroke rate slows and they seem to get just as many air bubbles as when they let their arms rip and throw their hands forward aggressively. The ability to get rid of those nasty air bubbles has more to do with what one does with the hand after it gets into the water and the sensitivity in the finger tips than it does with the speed of the hand as it enters the water. So forget about being delicate. Let your arms rip through the recovery with relaxed wrist and hands. Enter the water with full extension…or close to it. Then get ready for another good underwater pull with a high elbow, feeling the water as well as you can."
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  #10  
Old 11-29-2011
The Parrot The Parrot is offline
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The Parrot
Default Bubbles . . !

I have found it also reduces bubbles if my thumbs are kept against the index finger of each hand when spearing and pulling. With all fingers relaxed and slightly apart and with wrist in slightly 'flopped' position throughout recovery and entry. . .
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