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  #1  
Old 09-24-2011
arunks arunks is offline
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arunks
Default Wrist Action before Hand entry

In my previous post "Freestyle- Hand Release at the end of stroke and hand entry" I was suggested to have a relaxed recovery and hand entry. As suggested, I was trying the Zipper and Overswitches to have a relaxed recovery and a proper Hand entry.I have attached the videos of these over here.

ZipperSwitch- http://youtu.be/Lbxbb7Io8U0
OverSwitch- http://youtu.be/Ikp0OPtOA30

What I observed in the overswitches was that i was crossing my fingers as if for a thumb hand entry and then flattening hands before entering.

Is it because of the rotation of the wrists? How can I correct this? Apart from these do you see anything else that i need to improve on? I welcome your suggestions and comments.

Thank you.

Last edited by arunks : 01-09-2012 at 05:13 PM. Reason: Vid quality
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  #2  
Old 09-24-2011
woodwards26 woodwards26 is offline
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Default a bit less rotation

I am no expert but I think you are rotating too far so the thumb is pointing down. also because you rotate so far the arm looks to me that it goes behind your body crossing the head spine line something that i have had to stop myself doing
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  #3  
Old 09-25-2011
arunks arunks is offline
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Is there any kind of sensory feedback so that I can judge whether I am getting the hand position right, before the entry?
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  #4  
Old 09-25-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Try entering the water wider and closer to your head. this will change the angle of your upper & lower arm in relation to the water. your arm movement is bringing everything in too close and tight to your midline. Your shoulders are too stacked (too vertical) in those images.

You can either think about being flatter in the water or entering your arms wider (this will help flatten you out).

THere is one major thing however that I think you should work on correct ASAP...if I didn't think it was important to elminate this seemingly small alteration of position, I wouldn't mention it..but the sooner you get ride of it the faster your swimming will get better.

I'm attaching 3 screenshots. Look at where your hand and elbow are in relatoin to your body...both are behind your back. This creates a lot of stress on the shoulder capsule. While you could argue that this position occurs because you are drilling, IMO it's vital to elminate this "elbow behind the back" position from your swimming as soon as possible, otherwise swimmign will continue to be unbalanced. The arm angles I mentioned above I feel are set up by this position you find yourself in as you roll over from "on your back". (sweet spot would have you "off your back" at an angle rather than flat)

The fixes are easy and they are all tied together.

1) In breathing position, don't go clear over to flat, stop at an angle so your belly button is ointing towards 1 or 2 oclock (instead of high noon).

2) Your trailing arm should be in the recovery position. Move your hand from your side to your front as if it's in a deep pocket. This gets the shoulder in a more natural position. Be carefuly your elbow stays gently tucked into your rib cage and not stuck out like a chicken wing or shark fin

3) If you combine 1 & 2, then when you begin your "swing" it will be much easier to take yoru arm slightly wider.

See if those things help fix the wrist problems you noted (which I feel are a symptom of the above issues)

(Images wouldnt attach as the limit is 19KB, but hopefully by my description you can see what I am referring to)
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  #5  
Old 09-25-2011
arunks arunks is offline
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arunks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
The fixes are easy and they are all tied together.

1) In breathing position, don't go clear over to flat, stop at an angle so your belly button is ointing towards 1 or 2 oclock (instead of high noon).

2) Your trailing arm should be in the recovery position. Move your hand from your side to your front as if it's in a deep pocket. This gets the shoulder in a more natural position. Be carefuly your elbow stays gently tucked into your rib cage and not stuck out like a chicken wing or shark fin

3) If you combine 1 & 2, then when you begin your "swing" it will be much easier to take yoru arm slightly wider.
Hi Suzanne,

Thank you very much for your advice.I will work on the "elbow behind the back" problem and ensure that the elbow is a bit farther during recovery before entering.

I wanted more clarity on these:
" Move your hand from your side to your front as if it's in a deep pocket." and
"elbow stays gently tucked into your rib cage".

Also while drilling, during single switches,I feel that the spearing action leads the arm to the correct spot.But during multiswitches, as seen in my videos, the spearing is not proper.In fact i am not aware of the lead hand reaching the right spot, after entering water, during multiple switches or whole stroke.How to create more awareness after entry.How to create more awareness after entry?Also will the flatter hand entry ease this problem?What is your suggestion?

Thank you.

Last edited by arunks : 09-25-2011 at 08:59 PM.
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  #6  
Old 09-25-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Stand in front of a mirror with your favorite pair of blue jeans on. Now stuff both hands in your front pockets as deep as they go. If your fingertips hit the bottom of hte pockets, imagein cutting the bottoms out of the pockets and shove your hands all the way in.

Now look at where your hands are (gently resting on top of your thigh). Look at where your elbows are (gently touchign the front/side area of your rib cage.

When you are doing the drills that you have been practicing, that is the position your arms & hands should be in.

I think that your unusual wrist position is partly due to the way you carry your hand out of the water, from a position behind your back, around to the front...you can't truley have a relaxed hand that way because it's "pinched" in that spot behind your back. Get it out of that area completly and it will change the way you bring yoru arm forward...this will help correct the problem.

Also, I suggest a deliberate intention to move your HAND to a wider entry, not just yoru elbow. In reality you want to have your hand & forearm dangling from your wrist...but since right now you arn't feeling the more correct entry position...they I suggest deliberately moving it further so that you can focus on what it feels like when you put it there.

No one can tell you what the sensation may feel like as everyone senses things differently. Without an instructor or partner to guide your arm & hand in the proper entery position, I'm suggesting that you consciously PUT your hand wider.

Rehearse it in a standing position before trying it drilling. If you're not sure you have it correct in the standing position, have someone video that, or have your videographer memorize the correct position from teh TI video and help guide you.

You'll just have to keep experimenting...so keep osting here so that we can help keep you on track!
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #7  
Old 09-26-2011
arunks arunks is offline
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arunks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
You'll just have to keep experimenting...so keep osting here so that we can help keep you on track!
Thank you for your inputs.I will work on the suggestions and will post the videos on further developments.Stay tuned.Thank you.
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  #8  
Old 09-28-2011
arunks arunks is offline
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arunks
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As indicated I am posting the videos of Zipper and over switches, after trying to make the changes as was suggested. Here is the link

http://youtu.be/85nzheSNUA4

IMO, a few things have changed, like improving on the 1 oclock or 2oclock position in SweetSpot(Rather than flat), elbows going wider during drag, improving on elbows not coming to the center line and hand entry on wider tracks. Also the unusual wrist action before hand entry remains.

What are your observations?
What I observed was that when I am doing the drag(as in zipper switch) I see that the elbows are wide but when I take the hands out of water, just before entry, the elbow is moving toward the midline(looks stacked) and then the crossed wrist action. Is this the problem? How to make the elbows move in the same line for a wider hand entry ? What are your suggestions for correcting it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post

Also, I suggest a deliberate intention to move your HAND to a wider entry, not just yoru elbow. In reality you want to have your hand & forearm dangling from your wrist...but since right now you arn't feeling the more correct entry position...they I suggest deliberately moving it further so that you can focus on what it feels like when you put it there.
How to get the hands deliberately moving wider for entry in the above case mentioned?Are ther specific drills to work on?

Last edited by arunks : 01-09-2012 at 05:13 PM. Reason: Vid quality
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  #9  
Old 09-28-2011
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
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You look a lot better in this one, particular on your zipper switch! You're recovering your arms wider and leading better with your elbow. But there are still some things you can improve.

First, I'll mention a couple of things that you didn't:

1) Your sweet spot with your right arm extended looks pretty good, but when you go to your sweet spot with your left arm extended, the arm is bent at the elbow. If you were standing with your left arm in the same position, your fingertips would be above the top of your head instead of above your shoulder. What you are likely to find is that this will make your body drift to one side every time you go to your sweet spot.

2) When you roll from your sweet spot to your skate position (on either side), your trailing arm seems to get left behind, so that your elbow and wrist are momentarily behind you. Think about keeping the elbow of your trailing arm inside of your hip as you roll.

And now for the things you did mention:

3) You're on your side too much when you're recovering your left arm. Consequently, your elbow naturally goes directly above you when you finally hop your hand out of the water. Your elbow position looks much better when you're recovering your right arm.

4) The essence of the ear hop movement (as it should be done) is as follows:
(a) You bring your arm forward, leading with your elbow and dragging your hand through the water behind it.
(b) You momentarily lift your arm out of the water and bring your hand forward while keeping your elbow in more or less the same place.
(c) You slice your hand into the water, making a hole through which your forearm follows.
The real function of the ear hop is to allow your hand and forearm to go from being dragged through the water behind your elbow to being ready to slice into the water ahead of your elbow. You should lift your elbow just enough to allow this to happen.

What I would suggest is this:

1) Start doing multiple switches (both zipper and over) before rolling to your sweet spot. When you do single switches, you are always combining a switch with a roll to your sweet spot, which makes it much harder to focus on doing your entry properly.

2) On your non-breathing zipper switches, focus on sliding your recovering hand straight to your skate position. Think of having two railroad tracks - one in line with your left shoulder and one in line with your right shoulder - and imagine that your body is rolling back and forth from one track to the other. You want to recover each hand along the track on that side and slide it forward to the skate position along that same track.

It may help to rehearse this first: Standing by one of the pool walls, bend forward at the waist, with your nose pointed at the bottom of the pool and one arm extended as you would when skating, and then practice drawing a line in the water with your other arm, as you would when doing your recovery. Then do multiple zipper switches for the length of the pool, focusing on drawing the same line when recovering the arm with which you rehearsed. Then repeat this whole process, this time rehearsing your recovery with the other arm.

3) Rehearse the overswitch hand entry in a manner similar to what we just described: Stand by one of the pool walls, bend forward at the waist, with your nose pointed at the bottom of the pool and one arm extended as you would when skating. Bring the elbow of the other arm forward, as you would when recovering it, lift your hand out of the water, and then practice sliding it into the water, slicing a hole with your hand and letting your forearm follow your hand through that same hole. Then do multiple overswitches for the length of the pool, focusing on doing an identical entry when you're recovering that same arm on a non-breathing switch. Then repeat this whole process, this time rehearsing with the other arm.


Bob
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  #10  
Old 09-28-2011
rbs24h rbs24h is offline
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I love the fact that you have so much attention to detail and the videos are great.

Do you have trouble finding sweetspot from Superman Glide position? I had the same problems found it easier to get to a good, "one shoulder out" skate position, or sweet spot, from the Superman Glide with a push off and some forward momentum. It was hard for me to rotate one shoulder all the way over to the other side from my back without getting out of balance. I would generally not rotate enough and be in a stacked position, kicking like crazy to try to stay there. (I did notice your kick is a nice flutter on your back, then pace really picks up upon rotation).

From Superman Glide, it is much shorter rotation and for me, less movement required equals smaller chance of error.

And I always felt rushed.

This more solid balance allowed me more TIME to breathe, ear hop, analyze spear targets, before and after spears, make sure of wider tracks, think, whatever...

I keep telling myself that there is no rush because we are never done.

Good luck!!

Paul

Hope this helps.
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