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  #81  
Old 08-27-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Thanks for the KPN video.
Like all coaches with a personal swimming background, they want to teach what has worked for them.
Paul Newsome has his favorite stroke, KPN has her favorite stroke, Terry has his favorite stroke.
There are similarities between all those styles which are the core of good swimming. The rest is mainly personal style.
OOmph at the front isnt Terrys style, but works great for her with her capability of forming a super effective high elbow catch.
But If I had to choose between the 3 for myself, it would be somewhere between Newsome and KPN I think, although I also like Terrys style in his pace video.

The whole weight on catch thing isnt strictly needed for all styles. Its an extra that works well for some , others hardly use it. The mechanical preparation for the force on catch is a thing that is always needed I think though.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 08-27-2018 at 06:30 AM.
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  #82  
Old 08-27-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Thanks for the KPN video.
Like all coaches with a personal swimming background, they want to teach what has worked for them.
Paul Newsome has his favorite stroke, KPN has her favorite stroke, Terry has his favorite stroke.
There are similarities between all those styles which are the core of good swimming. The rest is mainly personal style.
OOmph at the front isnt Terrys style, but works great for her with her capability of forming a super effective high elbow catch.
But If I had to choose between the 3 for myself, it would be somewhere between Newsome and KPN I think, although I also like Terrys style in his pace video.

The whole weight on catch thing isnt strictly needed for all styles. Its an extra that works well for some , others hardly use it. The mechanical preparation for the force on catch is a thing that is always needed I think though.
Yeah when i still getting to grips with freestyle KPN's style really helped me with the semi straight arm recovery as i didnt have control over my rotation enough to do the high elbow recovery

but now i can swim a whole raft of different styles and switch them up on the go.

The main thing is Balance & Streamline once you have control over that then anything goes.

When i first heard Richard Quick say "the last thing we're concerned about is what the arms & legs are doing" i thought WTF? but now i understand.
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  #83  
Old 08-27-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat View Post
Yeah when i still getting to grips with freestyle KPN's style really helped me with the semi straight arm recovery as i didnt have control over my rotation enough to do the high elbow recovery

but now i can swim a whole raft of different styles and switch them up on the go.

The main thing is Balance & Streamline once you have control over that then anything goes.

When i first heard Richard Quick say "the last thing we're concerned about is what the arms & legs are doing" i thought WTF? but now i understand.
Going back and devoting time to balance drills a playing with static balance etc really paid off
the ability to sense when your breaking streamline or unbalancing is a must learn IMPO

I see the same folk week after week dragging hips & legs low underwater & addicted to pull buoys etc
all decent swimmers but just never worked at that balance & streamline
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  #84  
Old 08-30-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I am just focusing on letting the shoulders rotate enough before I go into a catch

do you mean you go to a lower shoulder angle (more flat) before going to catch? Thats what I was describing as the TI way ?

The difficulty in Terry's stroke (to me) is how to start moving the down side arm downward before the up side hand goes in and not to drop my elbow

I think I know what you mean by that feeling. I remember going from a more catchup stroke to trying to putting more weight on the low side arm before the high arm entered the water.This was indeed hard to do without dropping the elbow. Surprisingly difficult in fact, even if i wanted to just get that arm just a little bit down and in shape before the other arm landed.
This was because the arm wasnt in the right setup to start with anyway.
It was extended, but not with a stable shoulder on top of it and already with a bit of a dropped elbow, but that wasnt not noticable in the weightless extension.
When putting pressure on this arm its bound to collapse into a dropped elbow,
and desperately bending the wrist to hold some pressure on the hand for gods sake.

The setup starts already with the recovery in fact.
Elbow lead recovery which is discussed so often helps, but also bringing the whole shoulder forward almost over the ears mentally, while rotating the elbow up into the extension. And extending more with that shoulder than stretching the arm.
That arm is best kept slightly bend in a slight clawing posture right into the inward rotated shoulder,lifted up and forward touching the jawline, with stretched out lat muscles and other muscle ties that want to pull that shoulder back into its normal place.
Now its possible to load that low side wing, releasing the shoulders lifting muscles and loading the muscles from shoulder to ribcage in a semi static manner. Just let the forearm sink a bit to start the downsweep, and let the muscles from shoulder to ribcage do the first work in the pull, taking that whole static paddle along.

You can already practice this procedure and the relative armtiming in front of a mirror.
In my case it was exactly this timing that was more difficult than pure catchup or pure windmilling.
It needs some time to get used to it, and also requires special shoulder flexibility and local strenght to make it feel natural, which it isnt offcourse.

Still working on it everytime in the pool, veeerrrry slooooowly going better and better
ZT, to answer your question
" do you mean you go to a lower shoulder angle (more flat) before going to catch? Thats what I was describing as the TI way ?"
Yes, that is what I mean.

Concerning how to get the forward arm down earlier, like Terry does, I have been doing some experiments in the water and in front of a mirror. The main problem is that we are not anatomically set up to keep our elbow up if our arm is extended too close to the plane of our shoulders (outside the scapular plane). However, if you look at Terry's arm motion when his hand is moving downward, before the up side hand enters the water, it seems to me that his arm is straight, not bent at all. In fact, there are no anatomical constraints to moving your hand down early as long as you keep that arm straight while doing so. This may be the secret to Terry's catch: he keeps his arm straight as his hand moves down. I don't think you want to put too much weight on the arm in this position, because that may impact the shoulder, but by the time he goes into a catch his hand is close to under his shoulder and this may enable him to anchor better in his catch. Not sure of this, still experimenting, but it is interesting to play with these things.
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  #85  
Old 08-30-2018
CoachStuartMcDougal's Avatar
CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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ZT, Danny:

You guys are making this process far more complex than it needs to be. Awareness is great, but micromanaging all of the complex movements will leave swimmers completely tangled up, frustrated and completely confused in the water. And I think I saw something in the noise about Terry's stroke being a good example/promo for Swim Smooth? That's hilarious although I suspect your pal paul2121 would be thoroughly insulted :-)

The best and most succinct description of how the high and low-side arms work together, accessing the large muscle groups of the the core (not the weak/injury prone shoulders) from a coach who really knows what he's talking about and has a gift for delivering a clear message is Coach Dave Cameron and his video on "High Elbow Catch". It's been posted on many threads over the years and this one provides another opportunity. Select this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDmQiHQ8mW8

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com
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  #86  
Old 08-30-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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Hi Stuart,

For whatever it's worth, I do see differences in the catch as Terry does it and, for example, as Shinji does it. There is also a lot in common between their two strokes. My suspicion is that there are some basic issues that apply to everyone, and you have laid these out quite well, which I appreciate. In particular, since getting a forearm fulcrum, I have been able to correct some of my long-standing problems and your descriptions now make a lot more sense to me and I am trying to follow your advice (with some success, I believe).

That said, I suspect that the differences one sees in styles between people like Shinji and Terry are probably due to differences in flexibility and perhaps also body density distribution. For someone with tight shoulders, like me, it might help to at least understand these differences.

There is also an undercurrent in this discussion concerning what is TI and what is SS or some other school. I personally have no interest in this aspect and would prefer to stay out of this part of the discussion. I am getting most of my advice from you, in particular, as well as from other people on this forum, and I am also drawing my own conclusions from watching film and my own personal experiences.

I think somewhere back on one of Terry's very old discussions, he said that any verbal description of swimming will help some people but not others, depending on how much common understanding exists between the explainer and the student. He went on to say that he sometimes tries a whole bunch of different ways of describing the same thing until he hits on the one that resonates with the student he is working with.

I view the discussion I am having with ZT as part of this experimentation. It may not resonate with everyone, but if it helps me, then maybe it will help someone else too. As with all advice, especially from people like me who are not coaches, user beware. I don't claim any expertise in this area.

Thanks again for your repeated explanations of these matters, which don't always click the first time I read them. I am grateful for your patience and your strong presence on this forum.
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  #87  
Old 08-30-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
ZT, to answer your question
" do you mean you go to a lower shoulder angle (more flat) before going to catch? Thats what I was describing as the TI way ?"
Yes, that is what I mean.

Concerning how to get the forward arm down earlier, like Terry does, I have been doing some experiments in the water and in front of a mirror. The main problem is that we are not anatomically set up to keep our elbow up if our arm is extended too close to the plane of our shoulders (outside the scapular plane). However, if you look at Terry's arm motion when his hand is moving downward, before the up side hand enters the water, it seems to me that his arm is straight, not bent at all. In fact, there are no anatomical constraints to moving your hand down early as long as you keep that arm straight while doing so. This may be the secret to Terry's catch: he keeps his arm straight as his hand moves down. I don't think you want to put too much weight on the arm in this position, because that may impact the shoulder, but by the time he goes into a catch his hand is close to under his shoulder and this may enable him to anchor better in his catch. Not sure of this, still experimenting, but it is interesting to play with these things.
Thats straight arm catch
it hits the bottom of shallow pools

Basically it goes down straight to about a 60deg angle then breaks at the elbow with the counter rotation, giving an under the shoulder catch

but you miss out on a large part of the front end and are just left with pushing back.
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  #88  
Old 09-02-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Concerning how to get the forward arm down earlier, like Terry does, I have been doing some experiments in the water and in front of a mirror. The main problem is that we are not anatomically set up to keep our elbow up if our arm is extended too close to the plane of our shoulders (outside the scapular plane). However, if you look at Terry's arm motion when his hand is moving downward, before the up side hand enters the water, it seems to me that his arm is straight, not bent at all. In fact, there are no anatomical constraints to moving your hand down early as long as you keep that arm straight while doing so. This may be the secret to Terry's catch: he keeps his arm straight as his hand moves down. I don't think you want to put too much weight on the arm in this position, because that may impact the shoulder, but by the time he goes into a catch his hand is close to under his shoulder and this may enable him to anchor better in his catch. Not sure of this, still experimenting, but it is interesting to play with these things.
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Danny, I guess you know by now that the idea to get the forearm and hand in a more or less vertical position early after the body has reached extension is the ideal way to get a big propulsive survace ready to push the body forward from? The ideal downward hinge point is not the shoulder, but the elbow.
People like Sun Yang get very close to this ideal, for most people its simply anatomically impossible to imitate that action.
When you regard the hand and forearm as your paddle, pivoting that paddle down from the elbow, or pivotinh that paddle down with a second long lever, the upperarm, makes a differnce for the forces on the second hing point, that is , the shoulderjoint.
If you imagine the upper arm stick being 2 m long and attach the forearm/handpaddle on that long stick. it is very hard for the shoulderjoint to rotate that paddle on such a long lever.

So for developing shoulder problems we have 2 arm stroke mechanisms that can cause trouble when sinking the paddle slowly to get to a better catch position (even worse when that action is done with force) :

1) using the shoulder as the only hinge. This results in moving the arm as a solid unit. paddling with straight arms
Thats close to Terry style.
When using this style, the shoulder isnt internally rotated much, but the paddle is working at the end of a long lever, putting a lot of load on thatr shoulder potentially.
Whats the solution in this case?
Dont load the shoulder too much when the arm sinks to more vertical positions. Let the uncoming waterflow help take the arm along a bit, by inserting the arm a bit steeper, and start the sinking movement a bit earlier, so the transition from extended position to effective catch position ( 60 degrees form horizontal like Mush said), is spread in time. This also spreads the load on the shoulder over time, instead of trying to go from an extension angle to a catch angle in a fast jerky movement, overloading the shoulder.

2) Using the elbow as the hinge point for bringing the paddle to a more vertical position.
If there was a hinge in the elbow that could do that, that would be much easier. There is a hing in the elbow, but that hinge pivots not really in the ideal direction.
Totally relaxed it hinges in a plane thats 90 degrees rotated form the desired hinging plane.
The relaxed movement is moving the hand an forearm in the horizontal plane, at the surface of the water when having the arm at the surface of the water, and pulling over the centerline in the horizontal plane.
The whole arm can be internally rotated to bring this horizontal relaxed hinging motion towards the desired downward direction by about 45 -60 degrees before the shoulder joint starts to complain.
You can check this yourself by extending the arm, let the forearm and handpaddle hinge at the elbow and see in what plane this action occurs.
If that action can de done like Sun Yang does it, you are lucky from a swimmers perpective.
If you are only able to hinge the paddle in the horizontal plane, you are better off with Terrys style .

So, straight arm action gives a higher load on the shoulders in a sound shoulder internal rotated angle when the timing and force is mismanaged because of the long lever effect.

Too much high elbow can give shoulder problems too, because load is put on the shoulder in a weak unnatural internally rotated position.

Hopefully you are not yet totally frustratated, tangled up and completely confused yet Danny, although better to use pictures to describe these movement planes and hinge points offcourse.

Whats an intersting drill, is to try to swim with simple straight arms and have almost no pressure on the arms in the circle part movement before the shoulders.(before the arm is 90 degrees down) Just let the arm idle along at the front part. If you are used to pressing water down at the front this will feel like sinking at the front. Now start adding pressure at the back and slowly move that start of applying pressure more to the front.
Going from this only backend pressure to more front end feels very fundamental to your stroke I think.
A good way to get used and aware of how applying pressure at differnt points in the stroke can influence your balance and perception of the stroke.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 09-02-2018 at 04:19 PM.
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  #89  
Old 09-02-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Personally, I believe you can get closer to Sun yangs action by improving the flexibility of the whole shoulder complex surrounding the simple shoulder ball and socket joint.
When this flexibility and strengt increase over time, the whole shoulderjoint moves in an elliptical path during the stroke, increasing effective strokelength, and also giving extra freedom to rotate the shoulder joint/complex a bit further internally without problems.
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  #90  
Old 09-02-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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I have been extending

then waiting for recovery arm to come over and then using the connection

slide extended arm out to the side (in a Y position) slight pinkie down

this retracts the scapula as the arm sweeps out (like breast)

now shoulder is in a better position for EVF without a protracted upwards scapula too far fwd

spear shallowish and rotation takes it deeper to fwd extention

then sweeping out still pinkie down takes it even deeper whilst retracting scapula

then you can break at the elbow and your evf will be somewere around eye level or fwd of under the shoulder.
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