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  #51  
Old 08-07-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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[quote=CoachJamesEwart;66255]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
We exert pressure to drive forwards
where do we exert pressure?

Pull too soon
when is it too soon? Lets say you still use front quadrant timing. Is it too soon if you are still at the edge of front quadrant timing?

What do you mean by "at the edge of"? You are an engneer, you understand coupling motions? Front Quadrant means what? What is the purpose of "Front Quadrant"? Do you know? What does it achieve and how? Let's try and explore and understand these terms.
We are seeking to remain as streamlined as possible between the strokes whiuls creating coupling motuoins through combing catch, wieght shift and kick (whether 2 beat, 4 beat or 6 beat)
Connection not coupling (coupling is shoulder driven or straight arm)
I got told by Coach Dougal
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  #52  
Old 08-07-2018
CoachJamesEwart CoachJamesEwart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
for Coach Stuart


Re: Single arm fly. Itís not about rotation, itís about releasing the arm away from body with relaxed shoulder and slicing in naturally while still holding your edge. Simple, precise and effective. Youíll never see the body sink since the weight and momentum of the swinging arm is rebalancing the vessel and pulling the body forward *without* the impulse to pull from low side

Youíll never see the body sink since the weight and momentum of the swinging arm is rebalancing the vessel and pulling the body forward

Maybe you dont need many words, but can somebody explain what is meant here?
How is the weight of the recovering arm pulling the body forward?
And where exactly does that forward pulling starts and stops?
Single arm fly where the body doesnt sink?
Do you have an example video from that drill?

You seem to assume I have some connection with swimsmooth?
I have not a single connection to any swimschool. I am not a coach. I am just someone who is interested in swimming.
I dont sell books. I dont have a single swimstyle bias. Contrary to TI or swimsmooth coaches, who are biased to one style or the other. Work in R&D as a mechanical engineer, in the Netherlands.

The recovering arm balances the body and creates forwards momentum through ballistic energy forwards which then is released and with gravity and core and shoulder forces drive forwards with the high side creating momentum and force forwards rather than focussing on the very limiting low side force of the pull. Again please explore coupling motions to undertand this better or read this article here I wrote t for Outdoor Swimmer magazine which touches on it without going into too much detail:
https://www.facebook.com/TICoachJame...type=3&theater

I really think it would be great for you to check in with Swim Fanatstic in the Netherhlands who can surely help you understand TI better and help your swimming a lot as you obviously are a deep thinker about swimming
https://www.swimfantastic.com/
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  #53  
Old 08-07-2018
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Some years ago there was a long thread on this forum about one-armed breathing, which I can't find now, but others with better web skills might be able to put up a link to it. Two coaches who saw some virtue in this drill were Charles Couterier and Suzanne Atkinson.
I was summoned?! Hello everyone!! So a thread about one-armed swimming...excellent. I do recall that thread you mention Danny, and I'll see if I can find it. I always enjoyed reading Charles' thoughts.

I still use and enjoy 1 armed swimming for a variety of lessons, including catch as well as breathing. The bobbing can't be avoided because of the mass of the arm coming out of the water. It could be minimized with a "better" catch, but it's going to happen no mater how you do it. Fins or a strong kick could change your forward trajectory so it's lower amplitude, as would adding 1 arm in front.

For breathing I use the 1 armed stroke WITH the natural bob that occurs to help teach patience & stability, and an expectation of air appearing at your face without effort. By combining breathing to the stroking arm as well as away from the stroking arm, the drill emphasizes the beginning and the ending of the breathing opportunity. Each variation emphasizes a different part of the timing and opportunity specifically because there is a bob.

Breathing towards the stroking arm requires the chin to rotate with the shoulder with no delay and as the stroke underwater progresses and the body rotates, the air is immediately right there at the shoulder. During recovery the body quickly sinks so if you didn't get air at that moment you're going to struggle.

On the opposite side, you need to pause in skate, while the chin is rotated towards the top shoulder, which is the non stroking arm. During this pause the body needs to be stabilized and the mindpatient, and as the body bobs back up to the surface somewhat later in this cycle, magically air appears at the face.

In full stroke swimming then, one can combine that learning so that the breath starts early enough and lasts long enough to get plenty of air without struggle.

So lots of good uses in my opinion.

The last clinic I taught with Terry was last summer in Yellow Springs, OH with his sister Pegeen. It was a 1 day condensed clinic and Terry used 1 armed breathing in exactly the way I described above.

So there's no trouble with the Bob in his stroke. he knew it was there and used it for several good teaching points. if the observer doesn't see the value or know the teaching points, it doesn't mean he's drilling poorly, just that the viewer needs to keep remaining open to new learning possibilities.

For full disclosure, I am no longer a TI coach, but remain fond of all that Terry taught me, and of the TI systematic approach.
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Coach of 4 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #54  
Old 08-07-2018
CoachJamesEwart CoachJamesEwart is offline
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[quote=Mushroomfloat;66257]
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachJamesEwart View Post

Connection not coupling (coupling is shoulder driven or straight arm)
I got told by Coach Dougal
Coupling is combining forces together. No need for straight arm
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  #55  
Old 08-07-2018
CoachJamesEwart CoachJamesEwart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
I was summoned?! Hello everyone!! So a thread about one-armed swimming...excellent. I do recall that thread you mention Danny, and I'll see if I can find it. I always enjoyed reading Charles' thoughts.

I still use and enjoy 1 armed swimming for a variety of lessons, including catch as well as breathing. The bobbing can't be avoided because of the mass of the arm coming out of the water. It could be minimized with a "better" catch, but it's going to happen no mater how you do it. Fins or a strong kick could change your forward trajectory so it's lower amplitude, as would adding 1 arm in front.

For breathing I use the 1 armed stroke WITH the natural bob that occurs to help teach patience & stability, and an expectation of air appearing at your face without effort. By combining breathing to the stroking arm as well as away from the stroking arm, the drill emphasizes the beginning and the ending of the breathing opportunity. Each variation emphasizes a different part of the timing and opportunity specifically because there is a bob.

Breathing towards the stroking arm requires the chin to rotate with the shoulder with no delay and as the stroke underwater progresses and the body rotates, the air is immediately right there at the shoulder. During recovery the body quickly sinks so if you didn't get air at that moment you're going to struggle.

On the opposite side, you need to pause in skate, while the chin is rotated towards the top shoulder, which is the non stroking arm. During this pause the body needs to be stabilized and the mindpatient, and as the body bobs back up to the surface somewhat later in this cycle, magically air appears at the face.

In full stroke swimming then, one can combine that learning so that the breath starts early enough and lasts long enough to get plenty of air without struggle.

So lots of good uses in my opinion.

The last clinic I taught with Terry was last summer in Yellow Springs, OH with his sister Pegeen. It was a 1 day condensed clinic and Terry used 1 armed breathing in exactly the way I described above.

So there's no trouble with the Bob in his stroke. he knew it was there and used it for several good teaching points. if the observer doesn't see the value or know the teaching points, it doesn't mean he's drilling poorly, just that the viewer needs to keep remaining open to new learning possibilities.

For full disclosure, I am no longer a TI coach, but remain fond of all that Terry taught me, and of the TI systematic approach.
Hello Suzanne we miss you and I hope all is good with you.

For breathing my best drill is three strokes to skate with a breath and then three more to a breath the other side making sure we get a nice head turn and hit a great skate position. You can do this for 25 to 50 metres or more. This helps swimmers reach the breath with extended arm. I have not had any positive eperinces with one armed freestyle drills. YMMV.

best

james
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  #56  
Old 08-07-2018
CoachJamesEwart CoachJamesEwart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul2121 View Post
Thanks zen

It has our old favourites, Unco, Closed Fist and Longdog.

What was new to me was Catch and Throw but using a big paddle.

Something for us to try tomorrow.
"our old favourites"? Please explain "our"
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  #57  
Old 08-07-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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[quote=CoachJamesEwart;66260]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat View Post

Coupling is combining forces together. No need for straight arm
Well i must find the thread and revist the wring information i was given.
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  #58  
Old 08-07-2018
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
for Coach Stuart


Re: Single arm fly. Itís not about rotation, itís about releasing the arm away from body with relaxed shoulder and slicing in naturally while still holding your edge. Simple, precise and effective. Youíll never see the body sink since the weight and momentum of the swinging arm is rebalancing the vessel and pulling the body forward *without* the impulse to pull from low side

Youíll never see the body sink since the weight and momentum of the swinging arm is rebalancing the vessel and pulling the body forward

Maybe you dont need many words, but can somebody explain what is meant here?
How is the weight of the recovering arm pulling the body forward?
And where exactly does that forward pulling starts and stops?
Single arm fly where the body doesnt sink?
Do you have an example video from that drill?

You seem to assume I have some connection with swimsmooth?
I have not a single connection to any swimschool. I am not a coach. I am just someone who is interested in swimming.
I dont sell books. I dont have a single swimstyle bias. Contrary to TI or swimsmooth coaches, who are biased to one style or the other. Work in R&D as a mechanical engineer, in the Netherlands.
This thread/post is hard to follow, scattered all over the place, but will do my best to answer your questions:

First though, as a mechanical engineer, you post subjective material to support an argument the doesn't seem to exist. Going back to capturing stills of a TI coach without posting the entire video is taken out of context to cherry pick flaws, that are not necessarily flaws in full context.

Single arm fly, you are welcome to come out to masters, see demos from the swimmers, watch and discover. You do need to know elements of the fly or can do the fly to some level, so not for the novice.

I didn't assume connection with swimsmooth, I thought you were a big Taormina fan promoting her wares and videos on this forum, both you and shroom. But UNCO is an SS characterization of a single arm drill that you seem to love too, it's a single arm drill that is not owned by any program. But it's fair to say, you rarely if ever promote anything TI, and often promote others at the expense of TI which again is not the objective engineer. You present yourself as judge and spokesperson for TI - you are not.

Good to know you are from the Netherlands, we have a couple of incredible TI coaches there that could really help you find your way, minimize your confusion and over thinking of details and complexities in freestyle (back, fly, breast too).

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com
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  #59  
Old 08-07-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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So TI is a Coupling stroke then glad thats been clarified by Coach James
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  #60  
Old 08-07-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Can't see how you can have a loose and relaxed recovery arm in a coupled stroke but there you go.
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