Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 01-22-2010
Rhoda Rhoda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 402
Rhoda
Default

I gained more power when I started working on a high-elbow catch. It's still a work in progress, but mainly I have to focus on starting the catch waaay out in front of my body. By the time my hand starts approaching my shoulder, it's too late.
This doesn't feel so much a power thing as a tension thing. I feel a tension building up as my forearm starts tilting down, which snaps and releases like a spring or elastic band as my other hand enters the water and I shoot over the anchored arm. (Well, "shoot" is relative. That's what it feels like.)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-23-2010
Ghul Ghul is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 59
Ghul
Default

I think the problem with focusing too much on the power of pull is that it is easy to end up rushing the stroke and losing grip on the water (and probably dropping the elbow too). Not to say it isn't important but approach with caution!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-24-2010
ynotcat ynotcat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 32
ynotcat
Default

I read this thread last night, watched the Shinji video (have seen it many times before, but never concentrated on the high elbow pull section at minute 2:05), and then tried out on my swim today. Results were great for the first 800 M or so. I was definitely swimming faster with less effort. Then I felt the fatigue in muscles that don't normally get used like that when I swim, and my technique sort of fell apart. I'm going to concentrate on the catch, high elbow focal points for a while, and try to retrain my muscles so that I can maintain the pace for the duration.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-24-2010
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London, UK
Posts: 804
Lawrence
Default

Did any of you check how high your elbow was before you began working on a high elbow catch? I'd think EVF training is pointless otherwise. You might already be doing what the EVF exercises are aimed at.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-24-2010
Rhoda Rhoda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 402
Rhoda
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Did any of you check how high your elbow was before you began working on a high elbow catch? I'd think EVF training is pointless otherwise. You might already be doing what the EVF exercises are aimed at.
The difference is subtle. It's something you can definitely feel, but visually the elbow is perhaps a few inches higher.
I have a very old videotape from my pre-Total Immersion days (about 2002, I think) in which I'm definitely dropping my elbows. The instructor kept saying that I was doing this, but wouldn't explain what it meant or demonstrate the correct way. He just assumed that I knew what he was talking about and gave me a blank stare when I asked him to explain, so it was very frustrating.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-25-2010
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London, UK
Posts: 804
Lawrence
Default

A dropped elbow is where the elbow is lower than the wrist as the leading arm initiates its backward sweep. The TI-style catch isn't the high-elbow catch of Phelps and Thorpe but that doesn't mean TI espouses the dropped elbow. On the contrary. TI emphasises the importance of avoiding a dropped elbow but favours a lower-than-EVF-elbow catch.

Perhaps one of the TI coaches here will be able to correct me - and I say this as someone who doesn't use the EVF - but it seems to me that EVF (if done properly, which I think is very rare) provides greater power at the expense of efficiency.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-25-2010
RadSwim RadSwim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 201
RadSwim
Default greater power...with greater efficiency

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
but it seems to me that EVF (if done properly, which I think is very rare) provides greater power at the expense of efficiency.
Not a coach but I am an experienced TI student.

The first part is OK, "greater power...with greater efficiency". Once perfected, EVF creates a maximal pulling (anchoring) surface early in the power phase of the stroke. It allows efficient use of large torso and shoulder girdle muscles.

The reason it is not part of TI:

1. It is an advanced skill that is best tackled after the basics of body position, balance and core power are mastered.

2. Until recently, Terry didn't use EVF so he didn't include EVF in earlier versions of TI -- my take on it, anyway.

No swimming school, including TI, advocates dropped elbows. Most vintage TI videos show a relatively deep, straight elbow catch. More recently, a higher, flexed elbow catch is emerging on the various TI websites worldwide.

Last edited by RadSwim : 01-26-2010 at 04:29 AM. Reason: correct typos
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-26-2010
gobbles gobbles is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 7
gobbles
Default

Also a student in learning the art of becoming a better swimmer.

TI and EVF can work together as a masterpiece. It comes down to whether your torso can maintain a streamline body position and blending in your switching rhythm. It is not doubt a difficult thing to put together, as it requires many hours of practicing and refinement so that it is less mechanical.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-26-2010
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London, UK
Posts: 804
Lawrence
Default

I'm prepared to be corrected in my suspicion that EVF involves sacrificing efficiency, although I note no one has offered reasons for thinking it doesn't.

That aside, I haven't heard Terry saying he goes in for it, and he holds distance records in his age group. So it appears that for longer distance swims (and aren't those what TI is about?) you don't need EVF to maintain decent speed.

And that aside, the virtue of TI, to me at least, is that the movements it involves can be learned and executed properly without spending years trying to perfect a technique (EVF) which, in one of his YouTube videos, Terry says he has never seen one of his students perform well in 34 years of teaching.

I don't say EVF has no place in the world but I do wonder whether its adherents here had completely nailed the TI technique before moving on to EVF.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-26-2010
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 787
haschu33
Default

As a TI student, not (too) much experience...

About the pull. I came to the conviction that:

- Emphasize on the pull doesn't make you faster
- The hip-driven rotation doesn't give you substantial propulsion (seemingly in contradiction to TI, but is actually not, I think)
- EVF does help

I think the logic is this: you need the 'pulling' arm in the water as a lever for the forward propulsion. There is not really any other lever and no other source for the propulsion. BUT: if you start to pull stronger you start to push water backwards and your hand/arm moves more and more backwards in the water (seeing from a fixed mark on land). Which then gives you little or no propulsion for a lot of effort. And gives you the risk of shoulder injuries, as the splashing one already mentioned.
Main point I think is two things: to create a lot of resistance with the arm (EVF) and move your body most effectively along your lever, means along the arm (hip driven rotation, streamlining).
The EVF depends on shoulder flexibility and can easily lead to shoulder injury when too extreme, I noticed. The streamlined body position and the hip-driven rotation seems to be the most effective way to move the body along the arm - that is actually what TI is about. So the hip driven rotation is first of all the most effective way to get your body from one streamlined position into the next streamlined position without actually leaving that streamlined position in between, it's main point is not to bring propulsion. But without that hip-driven rotation to get sufficient propulsion is difficult or even impossible.

The key - I think - is indeed to 'anchor' the arm, to find that balance between creating a strong resistance with forearm and hand without pulling strong and using the long core muscles (lats) to move the body and the long core muscles (abs) to keep the body in a streamlined position.

'Anchoring the arm' and having 'only feather like pressure' on the arm (as Terry once put it) is basically synonymous.
I saw a YouTube video where an American worldclass swimmer (I forgot her name) said, you should forget about 'pulling' but create a visual image that you are moving your body along an anchored arm.
I think anchoring does not mean that you don't move your arm, it means your arm doesn't move too much relative to the water. Whatever way you put it, moving your body along the arm or moving the arm along the body is in effect the identical movement. The image of 'anchoring' helps to keep up the streamline and not to be driven into pulling too much.
Basically it means just pulling enough that you don't waste energy and still get the most possible propulsion out of it. The art would be to move your body forward but not the arm backwards.

I practice that with putting the focus on the wrist, not on the hand (of the 'pulling' arm). That helps applying pressure with the forearm and not with the hand and makes me using the lats and not the short shoulder muscles. The fist-glove seems to be the tool for training that (never used one though). Regarding EVF: just keeping the elbows high.
Putting the focus on the pull does not help, it actually can be quite contra-productive.

My 2 cents...
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.