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  #21  
Old 03-14-2018
IngeA IngeA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom65 View Post
Was talking about floating. Relaxing my body didn't help me float. Hands above head i.e stretched out longways did.

Think this will be true for a lot of people that haven't found floating easy.
For me the question is: why you practice floating?
To help your freestyle technique or just for fun to experience another sensation?
If I practice something to learn better technique it will not help at all if I do it in a way that I never will be able to apply in the whole stroke. Doing a banana to hold the feet up will cause many other problems in whole stroke (recovery, shoulder injuries, breathing problems...). Slightly sinking feet will be less problematic and not hinder a good style.

Of cause I can play in the water. It makes fun and it's good for body perception and coordination. So of cause I always learn anything while playing in the water. But I should not play and think that I am training special abilities which I could apply in whole stroke.

Best regards
Inge
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  #22  
Old 03-14-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IngeA View Post
For me the question is: why you practice floating?
To help your freestyle technique or just for fun to experience another sensation?
If I practice something to learn better technique it will not help at all if I do it in a way that I never will be able to apply in the whole stroke. Doing a banana to hold the feet up will cause many other problems in whole stroke (recovery, shoulder injuries, breathing problems...). Slightly sinking feet will be less problematic and not hinder a good style.

Of cause I can play in the water. It makes fun and it's good for body perception and coordination. So of cause I always learn anything while playing in the water. But I should not play and think that I am training special abilities which I could apply in whole stroke.

Best regards
Inge
You're not banana'd in floating streamline though, its super taught through the core,
Then drop arms to around lung depth for spearing and the kick should balance that out

At some point to there has to be some taughtness otherwise its like an unconnected noodle twisting and bending about
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  #23  
Old 03-14-2018
IngeA IngeA is offline
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of cause there has to be SOME tension. Relaxed does not mean without tension or like a pudding.
If you see a gymnast doing his exercises it all looks relaxed, but of cause he isn't.
Relaxed means: just enough tension in just the right time to get the best result. Relaxed means: Not stiff.

I'm doing Kung Fu. When I push someone who's much heavier than me, it looks relaxed, but of cause there is tension. Just enough at just the right time in just the right angle to my partner.
It's a lot of work to let ist be "relaxed". At first all is stiff and looks stiff.

But gymnastics and Kung Fu are sports on land. You have to learn tension first, you will get hurt if you don't. In water it's different. There you can learn to be relaxed with tension while you progress with your skills. You don't have to "unlearn" to be stiff. The water supports you, you won't get hurt if you do several strokes with less tension than needed. You can learn timing and technique and with both skills your skill of relaxed tension will grow as well.

Best regards
Inge
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  #24  
Old 04-09-2018
fatbob
 
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Default Is there an answer to the original sinking question?

I have read through all the posts on this thread and it seems to get a bit off topic, I couldn't follow what some of the posts were getting at. I am interested because I think I have a similar problem.

I have been following the Effortless Endurance course and the drills seem to go fairly OK, but when I try to put it all together and swim 25m it just doesn't seem to work. I seem to be putting in far too much effort and moving far too little too slowly. Unless I keep kicking, my legs sink like a sack of bricks. I swim slowly and my arms don't generate much propulsion. My wife, who is a decent swimmer but follows more conventional technique, says I am not pulling - although according to TI I am not supposed to! Because I am slow my legs tend to sink even more, creating more drag, which makes me even slower. I don't go fast enough to create a bow wave which means I have to turn my head further to breathe, which again tends to slow me down and add to the problems.

It is so frustrating to do all the drills thinking you are making progress, only to go back to square one when you try to actually swim.

My local swimming pool has quite a noticeable current in the water from one end to the other. Swimming with the current is easier but I am still slow and far from effortless. Swimming against the current I have virtually no glide or momentum and I come to a dead stop (and sink) if I don't keep working hard. Even during the drills I have never been able to glide very far. I could never cross a 25m pool in 3 push offs as Terry does, I slow to a stop and sink almost immediately after the push.

I imagine some video would be useful but I don't have any as yet. I normally swim on my own and I don' know if you are even allowed to take video in the pool. You are also not allowed to use a snorkel or fins, which might have been useful. Health & safety and privacy has got out of control in the UK!

I realise this is not much to go on, but...any suggestions on where to start? I might have to try a TI coach but the nearest is 40 miles away so not very convenient.
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  #25  
Old 04-09-2018
fatbob
 
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One other question/observation. The TI instructions say to extend the spearing hand downwards below the body line and also suggest that spearing lower helps to raise the lower body. But when you see the videos of Terry or Shinji swimming, the front arm is extended almost horizontally. The first reply to this post links to a video telling you to raise your arms to the surface in order to counterbalance and raise your legs, and Shinji has posted a similar video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oheyNSELm8. So now I am even more confused!
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  #26  
Old 04-10-2018
Tom65 Tom65 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbob View Post
One other question/observation. The TI instructions say to extend the spearing hand downwards below the body line and also suggest that spearing lower helps to raise the lower body. But when you see the videos of Terry or Shinji swimming, the front arm is extended almost horizontally. The first reply to this post links to a video telling you to raise your arms to the surface in order to counterbalance and raise your legs, and Shinji has posted a similar video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oheyNSELm8. So now I am even more confused!
Static balance may require raised hands.
Swimming balance is a complex series of movements that come with time and practice.
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  #27  
Old 04-10-2018
daveblt daveblt is offline
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He is engaging the back muscles, the back of the thighs and engaging the core to help bring up the legs to help with balance which I think is just as important or even more than keeping your head down and your hand below your shoulder on entry .

Dave
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  #28  
Old 04-10-2018
IngeA IngeA is offline
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Also first to the high arm position:
If you look at Shinji in your video, he first raises the arms and legs but this leads to a bit of a hollow back which is to be avoided in swimming. When his legs come up Shinji lowers the arms again. With high arms it’s not a position you can really hold. The arms initiate the moving to flat position, they don’t help to hold it.

How high you can raise your arms without hollow back is a question of your shoulder flexibility. Most people in middle age can't open the shoulder-body-angle to 180°. So that's normal. That's one reason for a deeper spear.
The other reason is, that it causes stress in the shoulder joints to pull in such a high arm position. Or, and perhaps this hits the point in your case: You only can "pull" with your hand, not with the much bigger surface of your forearm.

If you look at Terry's videos you will see, that in nearly the complete arm stroke under water the forearm is very steep. From a high spearing position you can’t elevate your elbow over the level of the hand to "pull". Also Terry and Shinji who can spear higher due to their good shoulder flexibility, let their arm sink before the arm stroke. You can't anchor your hand properly and you can't do an effective stroke without the so called "high elbow". When the "pull" starts, the arm has the shape like you hold a big balance ball.

To learn the grip and how it feels right you can "play" in swallow water with your arms. Try it out: relaxed hands vs. stiff arms, pulling with only the hand. vs. pulling with the whole forearm.

Swimming with making fists, or even better, with fistgloves, helps also to get a better „pull".

You see that I always wrote „pull“ because we don’t really pull. But at first you will pull. It will take some time until the stroke don’t fell like pulling but is what it should be: anchoring the hand and forearm and pulling your body forward, not the arm backward.

To the balance: Even if the drills work well it will take some time to transfer this skill in whole stroke.

The most important skills are balance and streamlining and it pays off to put a lot of time and attention to these two. So it may help to put all other skills aside in whole stroke while you are practicing these two.
To concentrate on the main skills it may help not to breathe but to just a few strokes and then stand up again or, even better, to use a snorkel.
So you can imprint first balancing, than streamlining in whole stroke without being stressed with other skills.

To get a video:

In our pool taking photos and filming are also forbidden. The other swimmers perhaps don’t want to be seen in the web.

The only possibility to get a video there is: coming when the pool isn’t crowded (very difficult in „my“ pool) and asking the life guard to take the video. So he has control over what is filmed.

I will try to take videos in summer in the outdoor pool. In the morning in the BIG kiddy pool there is nobody.

Best regards
Inge

Last edited by IngeA : 04-10-2018 at 06:34 AM.
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  #29  
Old 04-10-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbob View Post
One other question/observation. The TI instructions say to extend the spearing hand downwards below the body line and also suggest that spearing lower helps to raise the lower body. But when you see the videos of Terry or Shinji swimming, the front arm is extended almost horizontally. The first reply to this post links to a video telling you to raise your arms to the surface in order to counterbalance and raise your legs, and Shinji has posted a similar video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oheyNSELm8. So now I am even more confused!
Hello fatbob

I think i said this at the start of the thread but agian,

1. Get a pullbuoy with 3 bars of floatation or cut a big one down i use arena type C
2. Stick it between your legs and swim 2 lengths
3. The feeling you are looking for will become evident
4. The feeling is one of taughtness in the lower abdominal and glutes inner thighs etc,
****you want to rock around your pelvis skating from one edge to the other, and drive each edge towards the far end of the pool***** this is hip drive

You will get the feeling with the pullbouy you will not discover it without the pull buoy
if you dont have a pullbuoy then squeeze your legs together at the thighs and point your toes (like standing on extreme tiptoes)

This is what you need to discover or you will forever be a brick lol

On spearing optimal depth is 400mm below the surface (take a tape measure)

If the surface is 9am & 3pm
you want to spear to 8am & 4pm
not 7am & 5pm as oncoming water pressure will hit the tops of your arms and suck you down making breathing impossible when trying to reach air

Try my suggestion and report back :-)
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  #30  
Old 04-10-2018
John@NewPaltz
 
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Couple thoughts from my side:
1. In his "Ultra-efficient Freestyle" book, Terry wrote that spearing slightly downward will turn your arm into a "trim tab", helping to lift your legs and therefore reduce overall drag. While I'm having trouble believing the trim tab theory (trim tabs in boats only work, because a planing ride is much more energy efficient than a displacement ride, but a swimmer will probably never get into planing mode :-)), it definitely relies on the fact that the oncoming water hits the top of your arm, creating a downward force.
So, in this particular point, I need to disagree with Mushroomfloat. Terry's trim tab theory is actually actively making use of this effect (as I said, I'm undecided, whether or not it will provide a net gain in efficiency).

2. Talking head-to-toe balance: The physics behind it is relatively straight forward. Your center of buoyancy is pretty much in the center of your lungs (is that actually true?) whereas your center of gravity is some inches down towards your belly button. This creates a rotational force (maybe angular momentum is more accurate, I don't know) which is pulling down your legs.
The exact position and relative distance between those two points is different for every body. So, for the lady in the first video it seems to be sufficient to just bring her arms in front of her center of buoyancy to completely compensate the rotational force. For me and obviously for devadigs and Tom65, too, we need a little more "counter-weight".
One very simple way of achieving this is to lift your arms above the surface. The tiniest part of your hand above the water surface creates some "counter-weight" by an order of magnitude larger than if it was underneath the water surface. Another option would be to lift your head above the water surface (Yes, this really works! Lifting your head will press your lungs deeper under water and you'll be able to lift your feet to the surface).
Now, is this useful for swimming? Probably, no. But there is one element to it, that can certainly be useful: When recovering, you arm is above the surface, anyways. As soon as you bring this recovering arm in front of your center of buoyancy it will act as a counter-weight. Terry suggested an exercise where you "lift your hand over your ear" at the end of the recovery. If you try this exercise very slowly you will notice that it is creating a counter-momentum that will help you lift your legs (if you try this exercise too slowly, the recovering arm will push your head down so low that you can't breath anymore). So, if you aim for a slow recovery, aim for being slow towards the end of the recovery rather than the beginning (because in the beginning of the recovery your arm is pushing down your legs).

3. Altough I must condemn calling an argument BS, I also must agree with Tom65 to some extent: Based on a paper
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...2.sp006893/pdf
relaxed muscles have indeed a lower specific density than contracted muscles. However I made some calculations and came to the conclusion that the buoyancy of our limbs will change by less than 0.0002% if we relax them (if anybody wants to see my calculations, shoot me a message :-)). So, I agree with Tom65, relaxing them will not bring them (significantly) closer to the surface. Now, I also disagree with Tom65, because I believe that relaxing our limbs is essential for optimizing overall efficiency and also for improving sensational skills.

Man, that was a monster post. Sorry about that.
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