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  #21  
Old 04-14-2014
Janos Janos is offline
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Zenturtle, remember the zen part of your title! Einstein quite famously could not swim, but loved sailing. A position I was in many years ago...without the intellect of course. I wonder where this myth of us not understanding swimming comes from? Many people, Terry included, seem to make a living out of explaining it to us.
Gravity is essential for everything, and without it, you would just float away. You don't need a Newtonian knowledge of it though to understand the difference between it and kinetic energy. Even though they both influence swimming propulsion. They are both part of a mix of events that make swimming happen, which is why it is essential not to focus on one issue, namely, body roll, to the exclusion of other aspects of the stroke, that drive us forward in harness with rotation.

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  #22  
Old 04-14-2014
mjensen2k mjensen2k is offline
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Default Thought experiments!

So an engineer walks into a swimming discussion...

I love the idea of resonance frequency and definitely appreciate this thread! I want to offer another view, or perhaps it's just restating much of the same in a different way.

For those not familiar, objects (bridges, pendulums, marching bands...) have a resonance frequency, meaning it's a frequency where things amplify naturally. As far as swimming, that'll probably mean that our roll is amplified and/or feels easier.

Full disclosure: finding that frequency would be wonderful, but I'm not sure how to do it. I bought myself a tempo trainer, but haven't used it yet. I'm still drilling and working technique.

I think we can also have a comfortable breathing frequency as well, right?

I ask this to everyone... What if our breathing frequency and our physical resonance frequency are not lined up? I can see 'interference patterns' where sometimes the breathing goes well and other times we feel like we're out of synch. I can easily see this come/go through a longer swim session if the frequencies are close but not the same. I'll coin a new phrase here "Fresnel swimming interference patterns". ha! yeah, engineering humor.

Does that make sense?

Note, also, that resonance isn't just one frequency... like in music or electromagnetics, there are frequencies that resonate that are half or twice another resonant frequency. So double or half the stroke/roll rate might feel pretty good, but 1.5 or .75 not so much. Those might take more effort than you'd expect.

Am I out to lunch?
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  #23  
Old 04-14-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I dont think there are multiple resonance frequencies in a simple swing.
If you add a mass halfway the rope of the swing you get extra frequencys etc.

In swimming something simular could happen if you dont use the body weight as one single lump, but divide between legs, hips trunk. Dont know, maybe in the end there is also some resonance rhythm in the kinetic chain stuff.
Kinetic chain stretching/contracting is more about accumulating and releasing of spring energy in muscle fibers and good hydrodynamic form shaping. If that is going together with some resonance you could get a nice smalll input moving swimming machinery.(babbling away now, this is all way to complicated for me)
You could change your relative breathing rhythm when choosing a 1 on 2,3,or 4 per cycle, but its getting a bit theoretical here.

In practice, what is the usage of this talk.
Only real personal experience is a reduced roll effort at a 50-60 stroke/min rate at a 30-40 degree roll angle.
Taking 16 strokes/25 m with pushoff is nett 16 strokes/21 m. Getting to 50-60 strokes min frequency means a pace of 16-19 sec/21 m = 1.16-1.30m/100pace.
That is a bit too fast for relaxed swimming for me, so thats why I am also experimenting a bit with the different gears thing. Shortening and lengtening the stroke at the same stroke frequency.
Swimming with a deliberate shortened stroke is not very TI off course, and could well create more drag than the small reduction in roll effort is worth.
Only advice for those who are simming at a 30 strokes/min and a body roll of 30 degrees (not many I assume): Increase the bodyroll to match the roll resonance frequency with the low strokerate.

About bodyroll connection to propulsion.
This is how I percieve the pendulum (body roll)to connect to forward motion.
With the right front quadrant arm timing the pulling arm is used as the robot leg where the body is moving past the planted arm using weight shift.The robot hip movement is a bit like the forward/backward shoulder joint movement.
Here its all driven by the pendulum, gravity and a battery;-) Swimming fast requires more, but its a nice starting point.
Looks very inline with the TI weightshift theory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R93RRyW8484

Or like Natalie Coughlin says:
Plant your arm and swing your body around it (@2.15m)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ8iw8q2F9U

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-17-2014 at 08:18 PM.
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  #24  
Old 04-17-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjensen2k View Post
...I ask this to everyone... What if our breathing frequency and our physical resonance frequency are not lined up? ..
Can't comment on you being out to lunch, I popped out for a quick break 13 years ago and never came back! Anyway ... fwiw (and apologies of this is a derailment)

Last session I was getting furstrated at my lack of progress. Got to a mile etc last summer and since then have been "honing" my style - and getting nowhere fast! Probably harsh but that's what it felt/feels like. My pace hasn't really been improving that much over the last three months maybe AND I seemed to have lost my ability to swim any distance. At then end of the session maybe a few hundred meters into an interval a much better swimmer got in "my" lane (yep I have luxurious swimming conditions!). His pace was about 30% faster than me. I always feel I really should be considerably faster than the breaststrokers but his freestyle, 6bk and faster stroke meant I could just "give up".

This "giving up" always seems to be a turning point in my swim experience. By it I mean I stop trying to get anwhere except to a feeling of comfort in the water. It's a lazy pleasure rather than something goal directed, a throwback to the child playing in the bath!

I slowed down or rather stopped trying to go faster, and focused on getting the right width up front. That meant the rock 'n roll gravity thing began to kick in. I also lifted my head marginally, which meant I wasn't coming up from being submerged and that I reached the air fractionally earlier in the sequence. I also tried holding my hand at my hip (sacriledge) to get the feel of finding the breath at the point of maximum flotation/bob. These three things led to a really relaxed swim, a huge relief. It felt perpetual, whereas before my technique/comfort was routinely collapsing after 400 m or so.

So, specifically on the breathing (as you asked), for me, as I'm slow (2:10-2:20), I don't get much if any bow wave so I need to adapt to a water level maybe 3 cm higher than those on say a 1:30 pace. That means a head position that is not fully immersed. I've found something a bit syncopated in turning for the breath in that my in-breath needs to be beginning as the max flotation force is providing maximum acceleraion towards the air (the bob) and not when the recovery arm has reversed this.

For me the resonance (if this is related to the OP) is found when I get the front end gravity roll working through the leverage provided by parallel tracks, and then the bob coming as the arm comes underneath the body (and so can provide the upward force).
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  #25  
Old 04-17-2014
lorenzmiller lorenzmiller is offline
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great video thanks for sharing
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  #26  
Old 04-17-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos View Post
... Body rotation is attached to the catch, so you are trying to get a feel from the hips to the arm, so you get a sense of rotating past that catch arm. Specifically from the high hip to the lower catch arm...
To me this feels really helpful Janos. Thanks. I get the image of the high hip rotating down and driving the pull/push ... easier for me to get than driving the spear forward with the hip.
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  #27  
Old 04-17-2014
Penguin Penguin is offline
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I have been following this thread off and on over the last week. (Haven't been able to watch any of the linked videos. Sometime soon, I hope.) Then yesterday, I was reading something Terry wrote about outriggers and stability. It started me thinking about moment of inertia and its effect on the tendency to roll.

This morning, I tried swimming with a somewhat wider track through the air during recovery. Don't ask how much wider, maybe an inch, maybe two, enough that I could sense it. The result was that the whole stroke felt smoother and easier. This could be a fluke, a one time thing. I will have to try it again another day.

I had been keeping my hands pretty close alongside during recovery. Maybe it is a carryover from the skate-switch where the hands are drawn tightly along the body. Maybe I was over intretpretating the marionette analogy.
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  #28  
Old 04-17-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Played around a bit with different tempos. Seems you can also can get an easy roll at about 40 strokes/ min. Takes a bit more bodyroll.
Essential is an horizontal and tight streamlined body that creates little roll (and forward ) drag. A smooth and continues arm movement (no stalling at the hip) and a small welll timed kick can help to get the swing going.
Its not the most important thing , but during an easy swim it is as relaxing as being rocked to sleep like a baby.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-17-2014 at 07:48 PM.
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  #29  
Old 04-18-2014
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin View Post
I have been following this thread off and on over the last week. (Haven't been able to watch any of the linked videos. Sometime soon, I hope.) Then yesterday, I was reading something Terry wrote about outriggers and stability. It started me thinking about moment of inertia and its effect on the tendency to roll.

This morning, I tried swimming with a somewhat wider track through the air during recovery. Don't ask how much wider, maybe an inch, maybe two, enough that I could sense it. The result was that the whole stroke felt smoother and easier. This could be a fluke, a one time thing. I will have to try it again another day.

I had been keeping my hands pretty close alongside during recovery. Maybe it is a carryover from the skate-switch where the hands are drawn tightly along the body. Maybe I was over intretpretating the marionette analogy.
Doesn't sound like a fluke...sounds like you fixed something. :)
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  #30  
Old 04-18-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin View Post
.. yesterday, I was reading something Terry wrote about outriggers and stability. It started me thinking about moment of inertia and its effect on the tendency to roll.
I've been feeling this benefit of a wide track recently too but hadn't linked it to the width of the recovery, only to actual spear width. I think that I too (?) overmuch like that marionette feeling of the hanging arm, sometimes even grazing the surface of the water! :) Focusing on width in the recovery track as well as in the spearing track feels like an insight for me. Thanks. Having a wide track recovery increases leverage and moment (n.b not momentum) so should speed up the roll. But perhaps having the track more consistent might have other benefits too.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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