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  #41  
Old 05-05-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Do I understand correctly that we should endeavour to "feel" for heavy water as early in the catch as possible (and maybe even leading up to the catch), but once we have felt and identified the heavy water sensation, we should continue to apply just enough pressure to maintain the heavy water sensation, but only to "anchor" and not pull.
A great question that I have been exploring myself. There seems to be a tension between two ideas:

1. The recommendation (as I understand it) to wait until the spearing arm has entered, and the body has at least partially rotated onto that side, before starting to move the opposite (underwater) arm backward. The argument is that you wait for the body to rotate because it is much easier to maintain a vertical forearm with the body partly rotated onto the opposite side from the underwater (pressing) arm.

and

2. Establishing "grip" on the water early, and more importantly, getting the timing right so that the downward kick ("flick and hold") happens just as the underwater (pressing) arm passes the shoulder. This is closer to a windmill timing, but is still Front Quadrant timing as the arms are both in front of the head at the same point in the stroke.

So far, #2 seems to work better for me.

Done right, gripping the water early with the lead arm, with just a momentary pause at full spearing extension, really seems to reduce unnecessary acceleration/deceleration in the stroke, and promotes the smooth efficient delivery of power through coordination of hips, core, and weight shift. It makes it easier to get the "tippytoes" feeling with the body stretched out, especially a stretch in the hips/pelvis that makes the whole body feel longer and in the proper tension for good streamline. All of this seems to require that the lead arm be moving into its "grippy" position before the recovering arm enters the water.

I've watched the Freestyle Mastery videos in slow motion, and Terry is definitely moving his lead/underwater arm down/back BEFORE the recovering arm enters the water. It appears that his "press" where he begins to really gain propulsion from the lead arm starts at the same time the wrist of the recovering arm enters the water.

My tentative conclusion, based on this and my own recent experiments, is this:

The spearing arm should pause very briefly at full extension, and then drift gently down/back into its "grippy position. The drift involves the forearm more than the upper arm, which stays more (but not completely) still as the elbow begins to bend. During this drift, the body remains in skate position on that same side (i.e. right arm spears and drifts, body is skating on right side). This drift to the "grippy" position happens during the recovery, while the other arm is still out of the water. You need to have good balance to remain quietly in skate position as your arms both move.

As the recovering arm enters the water (up to wrist level), the body remains in skate position on the same side as the underwater/lead arm (i.e. opposite side of recovering arm). Meanwhile, the lead arm has drifted far enough that it is now just ahead of its shoulder. That puts it in the right position to begin the propulsive pressing motion just as the spearing arm hits full extension. It's important NOT to kick until this propulsive pressing motion begins--the two have to happen at once (three, really, because that's also the moment the spearing arm reaches full extension). Except that it's FOUR things happening all at once, not three:

1. The spearing arm reaches full extension

2. The other arm begins its pressing motion

3. The downward kick fires on same side as pressing arm

4. The body rotates to the new skate side.

With this timing, the pressing motion begins while the body is still rotated mostly onto the same side--i.e. right arm starts pressing while body is still in right-side skate. Do not wait to reach skate position on the new spearing side to begin the pressing motion. Instead, the pressing motion, AND the simultaneous same-side kick, assist rotation from the old skate side to the new skate side.

Long post, complicated to put into words--but that's my best understanding of how all this fits together to maintain momentum, streamline, and effective propulsion. I'd welcome any thoughts from other swimmers--thanks.
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Last edited by Tom Pamperin : 05-06-2018 at 12:56 AM.
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  #42  
Old 05-05-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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I've attached an image of Terry from Freestyle Mastery (not sure how to insert photos from my computer--anyone know how?)

You can see his underwater (right) arm is already set in position to begin the pressing motion--it has finished drifting down/back to this "grippy" position during the opposite arm's above-water recovery--both arms move at once. The elbow of the gripping arm is slightly bent (at the full extension of the spear, the elbow was straight). His body is still on his right side; he has not started to rotate yet. The spearing (left) arm has entered the water about up to its wrist.

From here, the propulsive pressing motion will begin as rotation from right side to left side happens.The pressing motion of the right arm will assist this rotation.

The right leg will kick down (flick and hold) just as the left arm reaches full extension (also simultaneous with the beginning of the right arm's propulsive pressing motion). The kick and press and rotation happen all at once. There is no waiting for the body to rotate before the pressing motion begins.

Notice Terry is not using an extreme vertical forearm. The important thing is that his arm remains locked in position through the pressing motion, preserving a large paddle shape to trap water.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Catch.jpg (93.3 KB, 9 views)
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Last edited by Tom Pamperin : 05-06-2018 at 12:58 AM.
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  #43  
Old 05-05-2018
borate borate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
I've attached an image of Terry from Freestyle Mastery (not sure how to insert photos from my computer--anyone know how?)
Upload the photo to DropBox, Google Drive, MS OneDrive or the like and get a public link.

Here, click on the INSERT PICTURE icon. Paste in the URL.
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  #44  
Old 05-06-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
A great question that I have been exploring myself. There seems to be a tension between two ideas:

1. The recommendation (as I understand it) to wait until the spearing arm has entered, and the body has at least partially rotated onto that side, before starting to move the opposite (underwater) arm backward. The argument is that you wait for the body to rotate because it is much easier to maintain a vertical forearm with the body partly rotated onto the opposite side from the underwater (pressing) arm.

and

2. Establishing "grip" on the water early, and more importantly, getting the timing right so that the downward kick ("flick and hold") happens just as the underwater (pressing) arm passes the shoulder. This is closer to a windmill timing, but is still Front Quadrant timing as the arms are both in front of the head at the same point in the stroke.

So far, #2 seems to work better for me.

Done right, gripping the water early with the lead arm, with just a momentary pause at full spearing extension, really seems to reduce unnecessary acceleration/deceleration in the stroke, and promotes the smooth efficient delivery of power through coordination of hips, core, and weight shift. It makes it easier to get the "tippytoes" feeling with the body stretched out, especially a stretch in the hips/pelvis that makes the whole body feel longer and in the proper tension for good streamline. All of this seems to require that the lead arm be moving into its "grippy" position before the recovering arm enters the water.

I've watched the Freestyle Mastery videos in slow motion, and Terry is definitely moving his lead/underwater arm down/back BEFORE the recovering arm enters the water. It appears that his "press" where he begins to really gain propulsion from the lead arm starts at the same time the wrist of the recovering arm enters the water.

My tentative conclusion, based on this and my own recent experiments, is this:

The spearing arm should pause very briefly at full extension, and then drift gently down/back into its "grippy position. The drift involves the forearm more than the upper arm, which stays more (but not completely) still as the elbow begins to bend. During this drift, the body remains in skate position on that same side (i.e. right arm spears and drifts, body is skating on right side). This drift to the "grippy" position happens during the recovery, while the other arm is still out of the water. You need to have good balance to remain quietly in skate position as your arms both move.

As the recovering arm enters the water (up to wrist level), the body remains in skate position on the same side as the underwater/lead arm (i.e. opposite side of recovering arm). Meanwhile, the lead arm has drifted far enough that it is now just ahead of its shoulder. That puts it in the right position to begin the propulsive pressing motion just as the spearing arm hits full extension. It's important NOT to kick until this propulsive pressing motion begins--the two have to happen at once (three, really, because that's also the moment the spearing arm reaches full extension). Except that it's FOUR things happening all at once, not three:

1. The spearing arm reaches full extension

2. The other arm begins its pressing motion

3. The downward kick fires on same side as pressing arm

4. The body rotates to the new skate side.

With this timing, the pressing motion begins while the body is still rotated mostly onto the same side--i.e. right arm starts pressing while body is still in right-side skate. Do not wait to reach skate position on the new spearing side to begin the pressing motion. Instead, the pressing motion, AND the simultaneous same-side kick, assist rotation from the old skate side to the new skate side.

Long post, complicated to put into words--but that's my best understanding of how all this fits together to maintain momentum, streamline, and effective propulsion. I'd welcome any thoughts from other swimmers--thanks.
This is my stroke too! except i find the hook in a pinkie down orientation towards the centre line then as i hook and begin to counter rotate the hand elbow forearm flip to a thumb down orientation. Gives a good lock on with a slight nudge downwards of the highside hip.
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  #45  
Old 05-06-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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To add: the reason im pinkie down during the drop and hook is because i find a pinkie down gilde locks me onto the underwater glide rail the best and i get the best streamline speed.
i just let the oncoming water pressure push my hand and forearm inwards towards te centreline
(which will be outside the body line when in flip.

The whole thing is like a corkscrew

I found it bu keeping both arms out in front in an extreme catch up corkscrew style then brought the catch arm back in closer and lower.

Its taken alot of work and trials to get here not sure its something people without a basic feel will be able to understamd.
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  #46  
Old 05-06-2018
daveblt daveblt is offline
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Pinky down on entry ,external shoulder rotation, even ever so slightly is also much better for the shoulders than a thumbs down entry and it just feels better . No one can convince me now to swim with a thumbs down entry.

Dave
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  #47  
Old 05-06-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat View Post
Its taken alot of work and trials to get here not sure its something people without a basic feel will be able to understamd.
I agree--it has been a long time and a lot of practice for me, too.

Steady plateaus, and then jumps forward in improvement. My last jump forward all happened when I started to focus on my 2BK timing, and the key was discovering that the kick happens as the pressing arm passes the shoulder. I had been kicking way earlier than that, and it didn't give me the whole-body connection I feel now. And it's that whole-body connection that is letting me refine my catch and pull so it's what I now think of as "front quadrant windmill style" swimming.

If any of that helps someone else reach a jump forward sooner by knowing what to look for, that would be great.
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  #48  
Old 05-06-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat View Post
This is my stroke too! except i find the hook in a pinkie down orientation towards the centre line then as i hook and begin to counter rotate the hand elbow forearm flip to a thumb down orientation. Gives a good lock on with a slight nudge downwards of the highside hip.
I'll try this out. I think my hand entry has been fairly neutral, neither thumb nor pinkie down. It'll be interesting to see what happens.
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  #49  
Old 05-06-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
I'll try this out. I think my hand entry has been fairly neutral, neither thumb nor pinkie down. It'll be interesting to see what happens.
Its about 30-45 degrees angle pinkie down to tumb down switch / flip at catch linked to rotation
probably nearer 45 deg you sort of get your hook pinkie down and rotate around it in a cockscrew driven from the high side hip rotating down (pulled by momentum connection from recovering arm)

I'll try the 2bk at shoulder thanks
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  #50  
Old 05-06-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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When i get the conection it is like a ratchet corkscrewing me over to the other glide rail
get some phenomenal speed out of just one switch

as bill boomer said in freestyle reimagined you need something to ride forward on in the space
ie a good posture and he says "sternum forward" head in line with the spine etc
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