Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-05-2009
madvet madvet is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 230
madvet
Default Instability from hip drive

Like many of us, I have been working on lateral stability issues and over-rotation that can cause it.

Today I "discovered" one of the causes -- I noticed I was overrotating when I was pulling with my left hand. This seemed counterintuitive to me since my left hand is my weak hand. What I realized was that my right hip drive was overbalancing my left hand pull and that imbalance was what was causing the overrotation. My right leg is my stronger leg -- that seemed to be more rational.

To work on this I didn't try to pull harder with my left hand. (I did try to have as perfect form as I could with my left arm -- high elbow, proper entry angle, patient catch). While I did try to drive less with my hip, my main approach to the problem was to focus on the rotations balancing out. That is, judging the rotational force caused by the arm pull and attempting to match that force just enough with my hip drive. This fits with Terry's theory of the arms and the legs working together as a unit but in a way I hadn't tried before. My position seemed much more stable and I was able to feel much more balanced propulsion especially when breathing to my left which has been my weak side lately.

I would be interested if anyone else experiences over-rotation on their weak side like this.
__________________
John Carey
Madison, Wisconsin
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-10-2009
ayesr ayesr is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 92
ayesr
Default Over Rotation due to Hip Drive

As I read your entry several times last week, (and I recall having read previous entries on the issue of over rotation from other TI forum participants), somehow it just dawned right there and then that my situation might be exactly the same.

A distinctive feature of my over rotation was the "noisier" left hand spear entry (which is my non-breathing side) compared to my right hand spear.

Then, TL said that as a current focus he was experimenting on just "nudging" the hips.

Your inputs, and the "nudging" (at least my mind picture of what TL called a nudge) the hips focus worked for me over the weekend, 8-9 August. With the tweaking of the hip drive & rotation, my left hand spear entry noise issue is on the way to being corrected. There are still lapses, but I just need to imprint a new set of correct rotational instructions to the brain. In my case, the sound tells me when I'm over rotating.

Is there a commanility in our cases John?

End.

End.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-10-2009
madvet madvet is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 230
madvet
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayesr View Post
....Your inputs, and the "nudging" (at least my mind picture of what TL called a nudge) the hips focus worked for me over the weekend, 8-9 August. With the tweaking of the hip drive & rotation, my left hand spear entry noise issue is on the way to being corrected. There are still lapses, but I just need to imprint a new set of correct rotational instructions to the brain. In my case, the sound tells me when I'm over rotating.

Is there a commanility in our cases John?

End.

End.
I think we are totally in sync on this! The "new thought" isn't so much that the arm pull and the hip drive cause rotation, but that the balance between them is the main tool to control rotation. (as opposed to pulling hard and trying to use the dropping hip to stop the rotation) (or another way to say it, balancing counteracting rotations throughout the arm action instead of trying to brake with the hip after the armpull spins you around)

By coincidence, perhaps, as I was doing this I also seemed to focus on the bubble noise and used this as a sign of over-rotation.
__________________
John Carey
Madison, Wisconsin
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-10-2009
atreides atreides is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 293
atreides
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by madvet View Post
Like many of us, I have been working on lateral stability issues and over-rotation that can cause it.

Today I "discovered" one of the causes -- I noticed I was overrotating when I was pulling with my left hand. This seemed counterintuitive to me since my left hand is my weak hand. What I realized was that my right hip drive was overbalancing my left hand pull and that imbalance was what was causing the overrotation. My right leg is my stronger leg -- that seemed to be more rational.

To work on this I didn't try to pull harder with my left hand. (I did try to have as perfect form as I could with my left arm -- high elbow, proper entry angle, patient catch). While I did try to drive less with my hip, my main approach to the problem was to focus on the rotations balancing out. That is, judging the rotational force caused by the arm pull and attempting to match that force just enough with my hip drive. This fits with Terry's theory of the arms and the legs working together as a unit but in a way I hadn't tried before. My position seemed much more stable and I was able to feel much more balanced propulsion especially when breathing to my left which has been my weak side lately.

I would be interested if anyone else experiences over-rotation on their weak side like this.
I have two types of rotation that I have been playing with. The one that I am in the process of phasing out was initiated with the muscles in my lower back. It was a lot looser and sometimes lead to lower back discomfort. What I have gone to is initiated (I think) by the lower abs and centered in the pelvic region ( think Elvis Presley). This is lot tighter and I find that it seems to be difficult to over rotate. In fact this weekend I finally realized what Terry was talking about in using core power instead of arm power. The tight rotation timed correctly with the pull resulted in no pull. What I mean is that I barely felt any resistance as I moved my arm through the water. You are a lot further along than I but I wonder if your rotation is initiated in the back instead of in the front. I don't know which is correct but for me the front centered hip drive is tighter and seems to be a lot less prone to over doing it. The other thing that I have done is that I have gone to wider tracks which also stabilizes rotation. I am right handed but I tended to overpull and pull closer to my body. This crimping action made my shoulder sore. Conversely, on my left side I seem to naturally pull wide and so no such correction was necessary. By pointing almost 1:00 with my right hand I have nearly taken the soreness out of the shoulder (in combination with better coordination with hip drive). Let me know what you think.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-12-2009
Nicodemus Nicodemus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 50
Nicodemus
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by madvet View Post
I noticed I was overrotating when I was pulling with my left hand. ....my right hip drive was overbalancing my left hand pull and that imbalance was what was causing the overrotation. My right leg is my stronger leg....

To work on this I didn't try to pull harder with my left hand.... I did try to drive less with my hip, ....to focus on the rotations balancing out. That is, judging the rotational force caused by the arm pull and attempting to match that force just enough with my hip drive.

.
Hi Madvet,

I am really confused by this post. Are you using 2-beat kick or 6-beat? I have been working on 2BK recently. But the way you describe it is the opposite of my understanding of how it works.

You say your right hip drive overpowers your left hand pull because your right leg is stronger. And you talk about these as opposing forces that need to be 'matched' & 'balanced out'. This does not make sense to me for two reasons -
(1) In general, in any physical activity we need the forces from different parts of the body to combine to create an overall greater effect. Opposing forces will cancel each other out instead.
(2) More specifically this seems to be the opposite of TI 2BK (as I understand it). Below is how I think the kick should work, and what I have been practicing. So if I have got it wrong I would like to know, so I can change it!!!

Lets say you are about to pull with your left hand. That means you are currently gliding on your left rail, with your left hand in patient catch position. It also means your left hip is lower than your right hip. But your left foot is about the same height/depth as your right foot, because they are slightly spread ready for the next beat.

So now you perform your next stroke. The following all need to happen within a single stroke.
(UPDATE - Please note this is NOT the sequence the actions occur in. In fact it is more or less the reverse. Thanks to Atreides for pointing out the ambiguity)
1. Your right hand will spear forward
2. You left arm will pull
3. You will rotate from your current left rail onto your right rail (ie onto same side as spearing hand & therefore opposite side from pulling arm)
4. This means your right (upper) hip must rotate down.
5. Which means your left (lower) hip must rotate up.
6. Which is driven by a downward kick of your left leg. (Not your right)

So the source of the right hip (downward) drive is actually a kick of the left leg that raises the left hip. I am sure this is what is described in the TI materials: The kicking leg is the opposite of the spearing hand - which means it must be the same side as the pulling hand.

If this is correct (?), then all the forces would work in unison to rotate you powerfully from one rail to the other. The "balancing" required would then occur at the end of the rotation to stabilise you on the new rail as you stretch and glide forward rather than over-rotate. Then on your next stroke you would rotate powerfully back to the previous rail .

If you look on YouTube you can find video of Shinji & Gadi, both of whom seem to be kicking on the same side as the pulling arm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJpFVvho0o4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JbNvTwsKiA&feature=fvw



This suggests to me that "balance" is about translating rotational power into forward momentum - it is not about counter-acting the rotation as it occurs by means of an opposing force. You want powerful alternating left & right rotations - NOT simultaneous rotation forces that oppose each other.

If you kick as you [seem to] describe, with your right leg, trying to "balance" the rotation from your left arm pull, this is what I think would happen (all more or less simultaneously):
1. left arm pulls back
2. right arm spears forward
3. upper body attempts to roll onto right rail following right arm
4. right foot kicks down, raising right hip which counteracts the attempted downward rotation of right shoulder.
5. RESULT - swimmer's torso remains entirely flat in the water. Power is only generated from the arm-pull rather than core muscles & body-rotation.

I apoogise if I have misunderstood your post, but the way you described it sounds back-to-front to me.

If I am right (?), this has given me an idea about balance to work on. As we rotate onto say our right rail with a left pull & left kick, then we do need to avoid over-rotation. We know that our right arm spears along the right rail. But what about the right (recovering) foot??? Maybe that needs to be on the rail too to provide stability?
I think I will head to the pool to do some experiments..........

Last edited by Nicodemus : 08-15-2009 at 05:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-12-2009
Nicodemus Nicodemus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 50
Nicodemus
Default

Hi again John,

I went to the pool and tried to kick the way you describe, with 'matching' forces. It took me a while to reprogram my brain to do it that way round, but eventually I got the hang of it...and...

...I found it almost impossible to make any progress with this technique. It felt like a doggy paddle - I had no grip on the water, and my 'spearing' arm just kind of poked feebly through the water. There was no sensation of Spearing at all. (In fact I notice your original post focuses on the pulling arm and says nothing about spearing - so I guess you aren't getting the spearing feeling either.)

I am sorry to say this, but I am convinced you have been kicking with the wrong leg. If I am right, you will have some unlearning to do - but you will unleash power you would not have dreamt of!


[ I also did some interesting balance experiments with a Pull-Buoy. But I'll put them in a new thread. ]


Good luck
Nick

Last edited by Nicodemus : 08-12-2009 at 06:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-12-2009
atreides atreides is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 293
atreides
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
Hi again John,

I went to the pool and tried to kick the way you describe, with 'matching' forces. It took me a while to reprogram my brain to do it that way round, but eventually I got the hang of it...and...

...I found it almost impossible to make any progress with this technique. It felt like a doggy paddle - I had no grip on the water, and my 'spearing' arm just kind of poked feebly through the water. There was no sensation of Spearing at all. (In fact I notice your original post focuses on the pulling arm and says nothing about spearing - so I guess you aren't getting the spearing feeling either.)

I am sorry to say this, but I am convinced you have been kicking with the wrong leg. If I am right, you will have some unlearning to do - but you will unleash power you would not have dreamt of!


[ I also did some interesting balance experiments with a Pull-Buoy. But I'll put them in a new thread. ]


Good luck
Nick
Nicodemus:

I read Madvet's comment to be that his hip drive in combination with his left arm pull was causing him to over rotate. In your original swimming steps, you indicated that you first pull (step 2) and then drive the hip (step 3). This is where i think you may have been confused (or maybe its me). My undertanding is that you drive the hip first which forces your arm backwards as you pull. Result. A lot less resistance on the pull. What I read is that Madvet was surprised that his left hand pull (his weak side) in combination with his right side hip drive would give him that much rotational force. Inthis sequence the left leg flick would have been the first thing he did which he uses to initiate his hip drive followed in quick succession by his pull. What I believe that he was indicating is that he would take some amplitude off of his hip drive (what TL indicated that he was experimenting with and called a "nudge"). When he spoke of his right leg, he was indicating that since it was stronger that it could naturally cause over rotation by initiating a stronger hip drive to the left. I don't think that he meant that he was kicking with his right while he pulled with his left (apparently only I am capable of that trick).

On another note, I am very interested in your breathing breakthrough. I will be experimenting with increasing my stroke rate in order to breathe more frequently. I discovered last weekend that I felt better when I did this. As a runner, I find I am a shallow breather and I think that until I correct this I can't really feel good unless I'm getting frequent bites. Up until now I thought the problem was that I was using too much energy and had sought to increase SPL to conserve. But now I think that I was actually aggrevating the problem because I require more frequent hits of air. I hope that I don't lose too much efficiency. Is there such of thing as too slow a SR?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-12-2009
Nicodemus Nicodemus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 50
Nicodemus
Default

Hi Atreides,
Sorry, I should have been a bit clearer maybe. I will edit my previous post accordingly.

The numbered items I described were NOT supposed to represent the sequence of events. They are all events that occur within each stroke, but not in that order. In fact the whole sequence is initiated by the kick, which drives the core rotation, which drives the spear & pull. So actually I presented them in reverse order working backwards as a kind of logical exercise.

Regarding John's description of his own technique, I do accept that I might have misunderstood him - but there are so many indications in his post that he is actually kicking with the wrong leg. Your own inetrpretation seems rather optimistic in that ignores all his comments about 'matching' forces. I think we have to wait for his own response. I am quite happy if he tells me I got the wrong end of the stick. But if my suspicions are confirmed, then we have an opportunity to sort out a big misunderstanding.

(Thanks for your comment about my Breathing post. Since I wrote that I have been getting more and more in touch with my own breathing when I swim.)
Nick

Last edited by Nicodemus : 08-15-2009 at 05:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-15-2009
Nicodemus Nicodemus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 50
Nicodemus
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
this has given me an idea about balance to work on. As we rotate onto say our right rail with a left pull & left kick, then we do need to avoid over-rotation. We know that our right arm spears along the right rail. But what about the right (recovering) foot??? Maybe that needs to be on the rail too to provide stability?
I think I will head to the pool to do some experiments..........
... I did that experiment, and it didn't work out how I thought it would. I didn't get any real sense that my recovering foot played a role in controlling rotation. But it was still a useful experiment - I had an idea, I tested it, and I eliminated it.

I don't think I particularly have a problem with over-rotation anyway. But an hour in the pool focussing all my attention on it was an hour well spent.

Also I became much more aware of my foot positions, which was useful.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-18-2009
madvet madvet is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 230
madvet
Default

I do kick with the correct foot. A couple of years ago I did start out wrong but I have it correct now.

Realistically the left arm and right leg provide the same direction of rotational force. However, I felt it as counteracting. I am not sure why, but that is how it worked for me. The important thing is that you use these together to control your rotation. There might be a better way to explain how these combine in a way that takes into account they are rotating the same way. We have always kind of assumed that they are equivalent forces, but one is "above the equator" and the other is "below the equator." Hmmm, I don't think that makes sense either.
__________________
John Carey
Madison, Wisconsin
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.