Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-07-2011
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Southwest Florida
Posts: 671
jenson1a
Default 2 Beat Kick

I have been using the 2 beat kick for about 4 months. I thought I was doing fairly well with it, but when I was viewing a video of the young Japanese man's freestyle, I noticed that the right hand entered water, the left foot kicked. I had been doing it completely the opposite--right hand in, right foot kick. This seemed perfectly natural to me.

By kicking with the same foot that the hand was spearing, it seemed that I was getting more propulsion. Is this completely wrong? I am assuming it is, but can't figure out why. I have read several posts and it seems that there are a lot of people that have different ideas about when to kick with which foot.

Also as far as the kick goes, is it a downward kick or upward or like a scissors? Watched several videos on you tube and have seen a variety of styles.

Appreciate any thoughts on this--hopefully there is some agreement on how to do this kick.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-07-2011
dshen dshen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 200
dshen
Default

Is the young Japanese man Coach Shinji? ;-)

Yes it is the foot opposite to the spearing hand that kicks. The concept is that as the spearing hand goes in, the body rotates onto the side of the spearing hand, which adds momentum and drive to the stroke. By kicking on the other side, you add more authority to the body rotation, which adds more momentum to the spear.

If you kick on the same side of the spear, you may inhibit extra authority to the hip/body rotation because your kick could be removing the maximum potential of the hip rotation as it slows hip rotation with the kick.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-07-2011
sniperthefox sniperthefox is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 23
sniperthefox
Default

Hey jenson,

Totally concur with everything dshen has said above. Shinji's CGI is a good visualization aid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JukMa...el_video_title.

The best way to think of this is to walk! The natural way for us to walk is when we step forward with one foot, we swing the opposite hand forward right? Else we would be square-gaiting (in military terms). I also struggled with getting the coordination for the 2BK, and had to really concentrate hard on the timing. To get used to it, I forcefully did it in sequence (kick with right foot, then spear with left hand, etc) regardless of the outcome. This allowed me to at least get the right idea in my head, since it was the opposite to what my brain wanted me to do at the time. Took about a week of practice to get this right, and finally be able to do it comfortably with the right timing (almost simultaneous). It requires a lot of mental practice outside the pool also.

Good luck with your practice. I'd also add that the kick is more effectively done in whip-like manner (per Shinji) with emphasis on a foot/toe downward flick. Avoid a scissor kick... which I also had a tendency of doing at the start, more to do with over-rotating, but nevertheless a common problem that I've read about in this forum.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-07-2011
Alex-SG Alex-SG is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Dubai
Posts: 415
Alex-SG
Default

Jenson,

There is an interesting exercise you can try to get use to the 2BK.
Instead of doing a normal skating drill (balance drill on the side, with both legs kicking) just do 1 laps with only the lower leg kicking.

After a few kicks, you can spear with the opposite arm and complete the rotation to the other side.

ALEX
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-07-2011
dshen dshen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 200
dshen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
Also as far as the kick goes, is it a downward kick or upward or like a scissors? Watched several videos on you tube and have seen a variety of styles.
oops forgot to answer this part!

i like to think of the kick as more a kick forward, versus a kick back, since your body may be slightly rotated and down or up may be confusing.

so you do not want to draw the heel back towards your buttocks in a kick, but rather kick forward as if you were going to kick a soccer ball.

one may ask, how do i bend the knee then? don't i have to draw the leg back towards my butt in order to "cock" the leg for kicking?

instead of using that visualization to cock the leg which may cause you need to be actually kicking back towards your butt in order to cock the leg, i would encourage you to instead think about relaxing the kicking leg at the knee such that the knee drops forward. this creates the bend in the kicking leg but does not cause you to actively draw the leg back which is bad.

then kick forward (as if kicking a soccer ball) with a compact snap, because you don't want to get your legs outside of your own wake which would cause drag. as you induce/help hip and body rotation with the kick, you'll find that the leg naturally floats back into position behind your body as you move forward.

give that a try and let us know how it goes.

as for practicing 2BK coordination, Coach Shinji had me lay somewhat flat on the water, arms at my sides, and then kick gently with each leg one at a time. as i kicked a leg, i was supposed to feel the rotational force it would impose and which way the rotation would happen.

then i moved to one spear at a time practice. this means standing in the pool, launching yourself into superman glide, then pull one arm back into skate. the arm pulling back then comes forward in recovery, and then i perform one spear (with other arm pulling back). after i do that, i glide to a stop. i stand up, and repeat. i repeat this with the same arm spearing all the way down the length of a 25y pool. then on the way back, i practice the other arm.

this allows me to isolate and focus on the elements of one side's spear and stroke and to keep repeating it over and over until it gets burned into my nervous system. doing both sides while swimming can be too confusing if i'm trying to learn something new.

so practicing one side, i focus on which leg i'm going to kick and attempted to kick with the correct leg for that side's spear/stroke.

once you master the right kick on one side, then you can move to 2 stroke practice which is then instead of stopping with one stroke/spear, you add one more stroke/spear with the opposite side before standing up and starting over.

then once this feels pretty good, you can then increase to 3 strokes, and 4, and then all of a sudden you're swimming the length of the pool correctly (hopefully)...
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-08-2011
svenosaurus svenosaurus is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 7
svenosaurus
Default

There is a good discussion of kicking in this thread, including my account of unlearning the off-beat kick I had been using for a long time. The good news is, it isn't too difficult: I was able to lose the bad habit over a couple of weeks, even though (1) it seemed impossible when I first tried it, and (2) I am a klutz.

The best way to think of kicking is as something that helps your body rotation, not as a means of propulsion.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-08-2011
celeslau celeslau is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 7
celeslau
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dshen View Post
then kick forward (as if kicking a soccer ball) with a compact snap, because you don't want to get your legs outside of your own wake which would cause drag. as you induce/help hip and body rotation with the kick, you'll find that the leg naturally floats back into position behind your body as you move forward...
Hi Dshen, I've not videoed myself underwater, but I've a sense that my flicking leg don't seem to float back into position. Or at least not as streamlined as I would like to feel it to be. It gets worst if I try to maintain a flat back (aka Shinji style) with 2BK - I feel like my butt is sticking upwards with legs stinking.
If I make an effort to close my legs after 2BK, it gets tiring. Any tips, pls?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-08-2011
dshen dshen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 200
dshen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by celeslau View Post
Hi Dshen, I've not videoed myself underwater, but I've a sense that my flicking leg don't seem to float back into position. Or at least not as streamlined as I would like to feel it to be. It gets worst if I try to maintain a flat back (aka Shinji style) with 2BK - I feel like my butt is sticking upwards with legs stinking.
If I make an effort to close my legs after 2BK, it gets tiring. Any tips, pls?
by float back, i should say that as you are moving forward, the fact that if you do not attempt to keep your legs in any position via some focused effort, means that your legs, if relaxed, should just move back behind your body as it moves forward because your body is dragging your hips forward and your legs need to follow. it is hard to describe in words but hopefully that worked.

Shinji always bugs me about keeping a flatter back but i have not been able to maintain that well. the trick is how to flatten your back but still keep your legs extended. that can feel like you are sticking your butt out and your legs are bending downward. so not being an expert here i am not sure i could give you tips on trying to flatten your back and keep a long streamline. suffice to say, you will have to learn how to just move the portion of the spine that is from your hips to your rib cage and it may seem like you are sucking in your stomach area to do so. I would play with that and see if that helps.

for a long time, i practiced just touching the tips of my big toes together while in the glide phase of a stroke, after i have already kicked. once i know they are lightly touching, i know that my legs/feet are in my body's wake and not dragging outside of it. certainly i had to train my muscles to use the least amount of energy necessary to touch my big toes together but that is something that took a little bit of time. i had to focus on extending my legs back and pointing my toes behind me, but with the minimum amt of muscle flexing possible. it takes some practice and time but that was the path i took to keeping my legs straight behind me, not stiff but rather relaxed...
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-08-2011
tomoy tomoy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 585
tomoy
Default

DSHEN, Your comment regarding touching toes is pushing me to ask... has anyone taken this step further and overlapped their feet during glide?

During casual filming, I notice that my legs seem further apart than they should be, but my toes can touch easily. I think it's mostly because I'm bow-legged. I can draw my legs closer together w/o much effort, but in order to do this, my feet cross to when the sole of one foot touches the instep of the other (top of one foot to bottom of the other). I spent a couple laps fascinated by this but I couldn't tell if it was making me more streamlined. And the un-crossing in order to kick was taking a lot of concentration.

Sorry for going off-topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dshen View Post
...for a long time, i practiced just touching the tips of my big toes together while in the glide phase of a stroke, after i have already kicked. once i know they are lightly touching, i know that my legs/feet are in my body's wake and not dragging outside of it. certainly i had to train my muscles to use the least amount of energy necessary to touch my big toes together but that is something that took a little bit of time. i had to focus on extending my legs back and pointing my toes behind me, but with the minimum amt of muscle flexing possible. it takes some practice and time but that was the path i took to keeping my legs straight behind me, not stiff but rather relaxed...
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-08-2011
galax galax is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 24
galax
Default lack of weight shift

I've been trying to use 2bk for 3 months. I must admit that I haven't reach the same efficiency of 4bk or 6bk.
In my 2bk swim there is still a lack of weight shift!
I realize that my stroke per lenght is better in 4bk: any advice?
Thanks
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.