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  #11  
Old 05-24-2011
tab tab is offline
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So I wasn't totally off base with the same side synchro thing. I will have to check my timing to see where everything falls into place.

I have mentioned this a couple of times, I discovered it after watching an clip from Alexander Popov's train, a dolphin kick combined with freestyle. I tired this and found it helped in learning the 2bk. As it is described, a flick, so the dolphin kick is reduced to a flick as well, instead of one leg flicking I tried both. I also find it helps with the legs splaying apart while trying to compensate the rotation. I only have to do this for a length of the pool or twice, 25-50 yards and see nice results.
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  #12  
Old 05-24-2011
cm67 cm67 is offline
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Just back froom pool and things are beggining to click with the opposite side side stroke and kick
Went up with a list of breathing drills to work on but when I first got into the pool I tried the kick out just to ease my curiosity over the tips I received on here, it went so well that I spent 90 minutes just going up and down the pool feeling pretty good!!!!...I should say that it wasnt 90 mins un-interupted (far from it)....and my breathing drills never got looked at!!!!

quite addictive this TI buisness

Chris....
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  #13  
Old 05-24-2011
AWP AWP is offline
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You meant same side stroke/kick didn't you?
When one leg is kicking (gently "flicking" to toes) the opposite side arm should be extending forward (the SAME side arm stroking).
Told ya you'd be hooked.
Keep us up,
Alan
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  #14  
Old 05-24-2011
cm67 cm67 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AWP View Post
You meant same side stroke/kick didn't you?
When one leg is kicking (gently "flicking" to toes) the opposite side arm should be extending forward (the SAME side arm stroking).
Told ya you'd be hooked.
Keep us up,
Alan
Oooooops....yest thats what I mean!!!
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  #15  
Old 06-27-2011
svenosaurus svenosaurus is offline
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Hi, my first post. A very brief background: I am in my 40s, have been swimming for fitness/recreation occasionally for decades, but 3 months ago started swimming regularly and with a determination to improve my technique (which I knew was terrible). Discovered TI about 2 months ago and started self-coaching with the help of the book and DVD. Signed up for a workshop, but it was canceled, so I'll be self-coaching until the next opportunity. I've improved noticeably, but...

I have a similar problem as cm67, and I only discovered it two days ago when my wife recorded a video of me swimming. When I saw the video, I first noticed that my hips underrotate (and thus my core twists instead of rotating together). When I watched in slo-mo, I realized that my kick is exactly out of phase (always the wrong leg doing the motion, e.g., same-side leg as the spearing arm).

I was completely unaware of this problem. I felt like my hips rotated with my shoulders. My guess at an explanation is that I try to initiate rotation from the hips, but my legs counteract that motion.

I should say that I have not specifically worked on my kick so far and I have just used what comes naturally, which turns out to be a 6-beat kick. I followed the advice I saw given a few times on this forum, not to worry about learning the 2BK before getting decent at other elements.

I see some useful advice here (and in another recent thread), but I am not sure if I can implement it. I know well what my legs should be doing; my problem is a deeply imprinted muscle memory that "insists" on doing it the opposite way. I must have been swimming like this for 30 years. So far (yes, it's only been 2 days, but I've been obsessed with it) all attempts to kick in phase have failed almost immediately. So, what I need is a sequence of drills to break my habits and re-learn kicking from scratch.

So far, I've been able to come up with one drill that seems to work as the first step: kicking and rotating with no arm action at all. That is the only way I've been able to "swim" with the correct beat (foot-down-same-hip-up) at all. The downside is that I don't have sufficient balance to sustain this armless 2BK and my legs start sinking after about 4 kicks/rotations.

If I try anything more complex, either my legs revert to their off-beat kick or I lose balance and rhythm completely.

Any suggestions for drills to break my bad habit would be most welcome. Keep in mind that simpler is better, as I obviously need to completely relearn a very basic motion. (Also, I am not naturally well-coordinated, although I learn skills well if taught systematically, step by step.)

A related question: since I need to forget my "natural" kick anyway, is it a good idea to focus on the 2BK for everything I try to learn now? It seems to me that I might as well do that; are there any downsides to that approach?
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  #16  
Old 06-27-2011
dobarton dobarton is offline
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I replied to a similar post two weeks ago...
"Kick took me quite some time to figure out. It did not come intuitively to me at all. What finally worked for me was to keep the "swim" portion of the effort as SIMPLE as possible so I could really concentrate only on the kick. In order to do that, I used only Superman Glide until I got the kick.
Start in Superman Glide, then, as you're starting to slow, kick one leg and allow that kick to rotate you into either the skate position with only one arm in front or even a kind of superman glide, but in skate position.
The goal is to get the idea of using the kick to rotate into skate.
The next step, of course, is to coordinate the kick with the stroke. Once again, keep the swim portion as simple as possible to be able to isolate the kick. My method was to use one kick to move me from one skate position to the opposite skate position.
It took me some time, but by isolating the kick only, and taking it slowly (not like all the ridiculous splashing I see by others in the pool), I now have a kick that is well coordinated. It's not everything I want it to be yet, but for where I'm at, it works!
I hope this helps. I'm sure others will chime in."

I REALLY struggled until I was able seperate the kick from the rest. Now, it's a natural motion (I still need to tape myself to see if it looks as natural as it feels, lol).
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  #17  
Old 06-27-2011
CoachFlppr CoachFlppr is offline
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Sven, I say stop kicking for now, to break that 30-year habit.

To me, a good 2bk is the result of a chain of events done correctly upstream: good balance, a proper catch, core and hip rotation, all of which cause a whipping moment/sensation in the leg.

Swim without kicking, and when you are able to develop and feel that whipping sensation consistently, flick your foot on the pull side.

Last edited by CoachFlppr : 06-27-2011 at 11:35 PM.
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  #18  
Old 06-27-2011
Mempho Mempho is offline
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There's a lot to be said for CoachFlppr's idea. I had an nasty kick that seemed to be throwing everything else off. So I quit kicking altogether, now just keep my legs streamlined, feet together, and toes pointed. Balance is better, rotation is better, and my focus stays on the front quadrant. Net result for me: faster lap times and lower stroke count.

Maybe we all worry too much about the almighty two-beat kick.
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  #19  
Old 06-28-2011
svenosaurus svenosaurus is offline
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Thanks for the suggestions.

@dobarton: I think I did see your response in the other thread, but then couldn't find it again. That sounds like something I can try as the next step after the no-arm drill I described. Whether I can progress to coordinating the kick with the stroke remains to be seen.

@CoachFlppr: I'll try that, too. I am curious how long I can keep horizontal balance without kicking. If my legs start sinking, do you recommend just stopping and restarting (like I'd do with Superman glide), or temporarily kicking lightly to regain balance? With the former, I'll probably have to overcome frustration, but with the latter, I am afraid I'd kick the wrong leg again.

I'll experiment with both approaches tomorrow morning.
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  #20  
Old 06-28-2011
sinker sinker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mempho View Post
So I quit kicking altogether, now just keep my legs streamlined, feet together, and toes pointed. Balance is better, rotation is better, and my focus stays on the front quadrant. Net result for me: faster lap times and lower stroke count.

Maybe we all worry too much about the almighty two-beat kick.
Mempho
Very interesting. Rotation is essential, but is the kick necessary if rotation can be initiated with the hips alone, thus maintaining perpetually streamlined leg position. Apparently you have discovered the kick is unnecessary. Hmmmmm. Something to look into.
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