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  #61  
Old 08-09-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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And here:

http://lavamagazine.com/swimming-fas...ands-and-feet/

Basically coupling requires strike rates of 70-80 or above to work

Below that it makes more sense to expend the least ammount of energy on recovery and bend the arm.
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  #62  
Old 08-24-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Watched this clip another dozen times to really understand what he is doing, and its very simple in the end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m3ah7VNiUw

Its just what Stuart and other Ti coaches are saying all the time. the focus is not on the low side arm thats already in the water, but on transferring the roll into a forward spear and following that spearing line for a moment.
The low side arm is more or less without any pressure on it during that focus on spear.
In fact, its the opposite of the weight on catch technique.
Result is that the start of the actual pulling force is delayed until the body is almost flat.
From there the pulling force rises pretty steeply, using mostly the rear end of the underwater arm stroke for propulsion.
The steep rise in force causes the often seen tendency of the dropped elbow elbow/broken wrist at that point.
Its a roll-weight into spear style, instead of a weight on catch feeling, where the focus is more on transferring the weight into pressure under the low arm as soon as possible.
This roll into spear/no catch pressure style works better on relative low speeds is my opinion. At higher speeds you cant afford to not keep your finger on the trigger for more continuous traction taking over from one side to the other without too much gaps.
This weight on catch style needs more postural setting up tension and forward shoulder stabilisation effort, but its worth the effort in the end for a more powerfull smooth stroke for sustainable speeds above 1.30 min/100m.
Its a bit like Dan Empfield wrote earlier.
You have to put in a certain minimal effort level to be able to reach a certain efficiency at higher speeds.

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/...Form_3273.html

Last edited by Zenturtle : 08-24-2018 at 11:12 PM.
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  #63  
Old 08-25-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Watched this clip another dozen times to really understand what he is doing, and its very simple in the end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m3ah7VNiUw

Its just what Stuart and other Ti coaches are saying all the time. the focus is not on the low side arm thats already in the water, but on transferring the roll into a forward spear and following that spearing line for a moment.
The low side arm is more or less without any pressure on it during that focus on spear.
In fact, its the opposite of the weight on catch technique.
Result is that the start of the actual pulling force is delayed until the body is almost flat.
From there the pulling force rises pretty steeply, using mostly the rear end of the underwater arm stroke for propulsion.
The steep rise in force causes the often seen tendency of the dropped elbow elbow/broken wrist at that point.
Its a roll-weight into spear style, instead of a weight on catch feeling, where the focus is more on transferring the weight into pressure under the low arm as soon as possible.
This roll into spear/no catch pressure style works better on relative low speeds is my opinion. At higher speeds you cant afford to not keep your finger on the trigger for more continuous traction taking over from one side to the other without too much gaps.
This weight on catch style needs more postural setting up tension and forward shoulder stabilisation effort, but its worth the effort in the end for a more powerfull smooth stroke for sustainable speeds above 1.30 min/100m.
Its a bit like Dan Empfield wrote earlier.
You have to put in a certain minimal effort level to be able to reach a certain efficiency at higher speeds.

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/...Form_3273.html
Yes, i was doing this the other day in the pool and very quickly realised it is pretty lacklustre
im a fan of giving up the back end early & karate chopping out to get back to the front
"keeping the finger on the trigger"

This is too much decelerate & re accelerate "stop go" IMO

I find it better to keep the same wide stroke but keep a more continious arm action, still FQS and 3/4 catch up timing but just let go mid torso and get out
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  #64  
Old 08-25-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Requires a good EVF set up though earlier in the stroke

Putting the emphasis on tge back end blows the triceps out pretty quick too
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  #65  
Old 08-25-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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what do you think of this backend of the stroke mush?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm755AF1w7o
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  #66  
Old 08-25-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
what do you think of this backend of the stroke mush?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm755AF1w7o
Yeah i think the main thing is to blend the finish into the recovery in one smooth action, rather than the stop go action of a full pushback and restart fwd
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  #67  
Old 08-25-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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free image hosting

His hand is still vertical (hmm about 30 degrees tilted already) and pushing at hip height, so he has a pretty strong backend.
Transition to recovery smooth enough I guess, so I think this is a good compromise. Not too little, not too much backend push.
When relaxing the wrist hinge at the rear you can even push the water a bit down with the hand surface at the end instead of up, giving a tiny upward push at hip height relative to the shown action.
Dont know why nobody does that. Everybody is pushing water up, and the hips down, at the end.
I think focus lies more on the frontend generally. Dont focus on it myself either, but when you totally focus on the backend and forget the frontend for a while, you can feel a difference doing it one way or the other.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 08-25-2018 at 05:11 PM.
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  #68  
Old 08-25-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Watched this clip another dozen times to really understand what he is doing, and its very simple in the end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m3ah7VNiUw

Its just what Stuart and other Ti coaches are saying all the time. the focus is not on the low side arm thats already in the water, but on transferring the roll into a forward spear and following that spearing line for a moment.
The low side arm is more or less without any pressure on it during that focus on spear.
In fact, its the opposite of the weight on catch technique.
Result is that the start of the actual pulling force is delayed until the body is almost flat.
From there the pulling force rises pretty steeply, using mostly the rear end of the underwater arm stroke for propulsion.
The steep rise in force causes the often seen tendency of the dropped elbow elbow/broken wrist at that point.
Its a roll-weight into spear style, instead of a weight on catch feeling, where the focus is more on transferring the weight into pressure under the low arm as soon as possible.
This roll into spear/no catch pressure style works better on relative low speeds is my opinion. At higher speeds you cant afford to not keep your finger on the trigger for more continuous traction taking over from one side to the other without too much gaps.
This weight on catch style needs more postural setting up tension and forward shoulder stabilisation effort, but its worth the effort in the end for a more powerfull smooth stroke for sustainable speeds above 1.30 min/100m.
Its a bit like Dan Empfield wrote earlier.
You have to put in a certain minimal effort level to be able to reach a certain efficiency at higher speeds.

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/...Form_3273.html
OK ZT, which of these two styles would you say Terry is swimming in the underwater shots of his stroke? His forward hand is almost beneath his shoulder when the upside hand first enters the water. Is he putting weight on the forward arm? Is Terry's style different from what Stuart is recommending in your opinion?

I think what Terry is doing is moving his forward arm down before the upside hand enters, but I suspect he does it at a slow enough rate so that he is not putting any pressure on the low side arm until his up side arm is entering the water. That said, I haven't really been able to copy this style. Lately I've been focusing on what Stuart recommends and I really like it because it allows me to swim distance in a relaxed fashion. One might argue that to eliminate slowing down between strokes one must simply increase the stroke rate. If Stuart is reading this, I would be interested in his thoughts on this.
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  #69  
Old 08-25-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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If you want to eliminate slowing down between strokes give up the back end
(karate chop out like butterfly and get back to tee front)

Also dont rotate too much as it takes longer to go from one side all the way to the other.
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  #70  
Old 08-25-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
OK ZT, which of these two styles would you say Terry is swimming in the underwater shots of his stroke? His forward hand is almost beneath his shoulder when the upside hand first enters the water. Is he putting weight on the forward arm? Is Terry's style different from what Stuart is recommending in your opinion?

I think what Terry is doing is moving his forward arm down before the upside hand enters, but I suspect he does it at a slow enough rate so that he is not putting any pressure on the low side arm until his up side arm is entering the water. That said, I haven't really been able to copy this style. Lately I've been focusing on what Stuart recommends and I really like it because it allows me to swim distance in a relaxed fashion. One might argue that to eliminate slowing down between strokes one must simply increase the stroke rate. If Stuart is reading this, I would be interested in his thoughts on this.

Danny,
I have said this before, Terry is the most non TI like TI swimmerI can find in all the youtube TI footage on internet.
When looking at that pace footage he could almost sell SS stuff.
At the edge of front quadrant and a pretty rotary and fluient style.

ok where was that footage? Yep here it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqbZlw55Fes

what is Terry doing here?
Looks to me he has a little weight on catch here, but it seems most of his pressure is coming form catching his rotational inertia with his arms. He doesnt moves his shoulder so much forward together with his arm and doesnt have as much core loading/tension as a lot of elite swimmers use, which makes the weight transfer less obvious. He is also bobbing a bit from the straightish arm mechanics at the higher speeds.
His patient arm is not a motionless dead arm. Its just moving slowly to a better angle to grab water after entry with a little bit pressure under it, and increasing the pressure relatively gradually compared to other more catchup style TI swimmers.
On the whole it looks very much standard swimming style with a 2BK.


Regarding pressure under the arm, it looks to me Terry is doing his personal version of active glide, perhaps a little more weightless at his lower speeds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KILRRbCzwUE

Do you agree with my description of the difference between the shown TI kraulstroke and the weight on catch stroke?

Last edited by Zenturtle : 08-25-2018 at 09:12 PM.
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