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  #121  
Old 06-26-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I see what you mean, her elbow is even touching the water before her hand.
Thorpe is even worse in this regard. look at how his right arm enters the water.
It might not be ideal , but when you try a starightish arm recovery and throw the arm forward from the body and the shoulder, you will find that the most relaxed arm landing is actually elbow hitting the water before the hand. I agree it doesnt look very nice and gives extra bubbles.How much it hurts performance. I dont know.
Ranomi krowowidjojo does it a lot too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD2cmGpw0oA.

watch right arm in slowmo. The power is in the body and shoulder rotation. the arm follows and is forced to high elbow position just in time.

And about using the mass of the recovering arm pushed forward from the low side:
Pelligrini is a champ at using that. Hard to enter gently without bubbles after swinging that mass forward, but at least she has a pretty good entering shape too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5Tg8d2TmoU
In the same video with Shelley is Mel Benson, and it is interesting to compare the two. I think Shelley's alignment looks better than Mel's, but Mel seems to me to have a much better grip on the water. Mel's head is moving around somewhat, but by and large she keeps her head deeper than Shelley's and she is looking down, not forward like Shelley. In addition her elbow seems to be up when her arm goes forward into the water, in contrast to Shelley's. Do you agree that Mel has a better grip on the water?
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  #122  
Old 06-26-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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I just went back to look at the film you posted of Thorpe, and it seems to me that he has a much better grip on the water than Shelley. One of the things that Thorpe does to get this better grip is that he has a slight undulation in his stroke. This means that as his arm goes in up front his head is moving deeper. He also keeps his elbow much closer to an up position as he spears forward, which Shelley does not. Shelley has no undulation at all that I can see. All of this seems to be very subtle differences, but when I look at the traction in the stroke, the difference between Mel and Thorpe vs. Shelley seems quite noticeable. Sometimes the big picture tells me more than looking at the individual details.
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  #123  
Old 06-26-2018
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Hello Mushroomfloat,

https://youtu.be/rwQ3l5YyloQ

Stuart knew Terry better than I, but I don't think so. He's neither the voice nor one of the swimmers. If I'm wrong, this has to be years (at least 10?) ago...

Best regards,
Werner

PS: But all the swimmers are showing exquisit balance in this drill!
Yup that's like 20 years ago TI. The 'shark fin', 'zipper switch', 1-2-3 tap-extend, we've long since abandoned for obvious reasons, even as Terry noted in the video, causing sinking, over rotation, breaking posture, lead arm high - all to rehearse a high elbow recovery. Terry would find this video hilarious too.

MF: Not sure where you dug that video up, it's an oldie, and you know we've noted abandoning these recovery drills years ago on this forum many times and you continue to forget. But it's great to see Terry and hear his voice voice from his 40's, never seen that one - pretty cool.

Re: Slowing down recovery to shape the catch is just contradictory to fast swimming. It's the other way around, speed the recovery to trigger the low side arm vault *without* coupling the arms windmill like.

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com
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  #124  
Old 06-26-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post

Re: Slowing down recovery to shape the catch is just contradictory to fast swimming. It's the other way around, speed the recovery to trigger the low side arm vault *without* coupling the arms windmill like.

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com
Stuart, I continue to have trouble with this. If you want to vault over your low side arm, it has to be anchored, and the anchor is not there just after I spear forward. So it takes some time to set that anchor. One way to have a speedy recovery and anchor fast is to move from the spear to the anchor at an earlier stage in the high side recovery, but I don't see how speeding the recovery will trigger a low side arm vault as you claim above. Can you please explain?
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  #125  
Old 06-26-2018
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Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Stuart, I continue to have trouble with this. If you want to vault over your low side arm, it has to be anchored, and the anchor is not there just after I spear forward. So it takes some time to set that anchor. One way to have a speedy recovery and anchor fast is to move from the spear to the anchor at an earlier stage in the high side recovery, but I don't see how speeding the recovery will trigger a low side arm vault as you claim above. Can you please explain?
Hi Danny,

It's much more simple than all the complexities I read on this forum and elsewhere. As long as you hold your edge and resist the impulse to pull, allow the high-side arm's weight and momentum to rotate the body, the "catch", "vaulting arm" will shape naturally. The high side arm triggers the low side arm, not the other way around. Stop focusing on what's moving back, and primarily what's moving forward. Controlling the positions of the low side arm through rotation will probably be wrong and worse be in a position, out of leverage that will do damage to the shoulders and provide no benefit to propulsion.

In short, the focus is to send the high side arm to its forward destination as you feel feather light pressure on the low side arm moving back - the vaulting, hold/grip of the water happens. It you snap the vault (by pulling) you lose the external forces of momentum gained from the hight side arm moving forward. Also "feather light" feel is subjective given the swimmer's experience, i.e your feather light feel can be my most firm feel.

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com
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  #126  
Old 06-26-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Danny,

It's much more simple than all the complexities I read on this forum and elsewhere. As long as you hold your edge and resist the impulse to pull, allow the high-side arm's weight and momentum to rotate the body, the "catch", "vaulting arm" will shape naturally. The high side arm triggers the low side arm, not the other way around. Stop focusing on what's moving back, and primarily what's moving forward. Controlling the positions of the low side arm through rotation will probably be wrong and worse be in a position, out of leverage that will do damage to the shoulders and provide no benefit to propulsion.

In short, the focus is to send the high side arm to its forward destination as you feel feather light pressure on the low side arm moving back - the vaulting, hold/grip of the water happens. It you snap the vault (by pulling) you lose the external forces of momentum gained from the hight side arm moving forward. Also "feather light" feel is subjective given the swimmer's experience, i.e your feather light feel can be my most firm feel.

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com
So there is a coupling motion? lol

Yes i know exactly what you mean i hang the lead arm out and fell the (not so) featherlight pressure from the highside arm as it comes over
i spent 2 hrs drilling this last week.

the timing is about 3/4 catch up? not 50% under the shoulder?
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  #127  
Old 06-26-2018
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Coupling, no; connection, yes. No windmill or "kayak", that's coupling arms. Transition of one edge to the other where both arms in front of head, or lower front quadrant is connection. Not "catch up", or 3/4 catch up, or anything "catch up"

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com
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  #128  
Old 06-26-2018
daveblt daveblt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Danny,

Stop focusing on what's moving back, and primarily what's moving forward. Controlling the positions of the low side arm through rotation will probably be wrong and worse be in a position, out of leverage that will do damage to the shoulders and provide no benefit to propulsion.

In short, the focus is to send the high side arm to its forward destination as you feel feather light pressure on the low side arm moving back - the vaulting, hold/grip of the water happens. It you snap the vault (by pulling) you lose the external forces of momentum gained from the hight side arm moving forward. Also "feather light" feel is subjective given the swimmer's experience, i.e your feather light feel can be my most firm feel.

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com

And with this focus being said, this is also exactly why I like to concentrate more on the upbeat in the 2 beat kick ,not the downbeat .When you spear in to the water and focus on moving forward is the time your leg on the same side is on the upbeat, and as your hand reaches forward to the end of it's spear the leg is now poised and stretched through the toes keeping the body long and it also gives you a great feeling of balance because of the stretch of the upbeat leg as an extension of your core. Then the downbeat happens as you now focus on the opposite leg which is on the way to the upbeat and vice versa .I'm not sure if anyone feels this way but at least for me this feels best and more natural.

Dave

Last edited by daveblt : 06-26-2018 at 04:45 AM.
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  #129  
Old 06-26-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Danny,

It's much more simple than all the complexities I read on this forum and elsewhere. As long as you hold your edge and resist the impulse to pull, allow the high-side arm's weight and momentum to rotate the body, the "catch", "vaulting arm" will shape naturally. The high side arm triggers the low side arm, not the other way around. Stop focusing on what's moving back, and primarily what's moving forward. Controlling the positions of the low side arm through rotation will probably be wrong and worse be in a position, out of leverage that will do damage to the shoulders and provide no benefit to propulsion.

In short, the focus is to send the high side arm to its forward destination as you feel feather light pressure on the low side arm moving back - the vaulting, hold/grip of the water happens. It you snap the vault (by pulling) you lose the external forces of momentum gained from the hight side arm moving forward. Also "feather light" feel is subjective given the swimmer's experience, i.e your feather light feel can be my most firm feel.

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com
Hi Stuart, you seem to be painting a very different picture of this than what Terry was describing here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pITBtglEUGk
How do we reconcile these two pictures?
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  #130  
Old 06-26-2018
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Hi Danny,

That’s a great video, Terry goes into great detail words alone cannot cover in a forum post - but I don’t see anything to reconcile other that using different words. “Simplying movements into one awareness” when he’s talking about rediscovering the recovery arm and weight shift. Terry notes to avoid intentionally positioning the forearm vertical, or the “EFV” unless you’re Grant Hackett who can almost dislocate his shoulder at will. Absolutely, intentionally positioning the arm vertically, it will probably be wrong, damage your shoulders, and add nothing to propulsive force especially being out of leverage. Terry uses “weight shift” where I describe as external forces of the weight and momentum (gravity) of the high side arm to maintain balance and rotatate body to its opposite edge as it drops in to forward extension. The main emphasis is what’s moving forward not what’s moving back.

So my question goes back to you: What statement(s) or definition(s) are in conflict and require reconciling?

Stu
MindBodyAndSwim.com
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