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  #21  
Old 07-24-2012
swimust swimust is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachLuisaFonseca View Post
Hi Angela

I don't know about others, but I don't TRY to engage my core. But I remember pretty well that when I changed from a stacked position (like TI taught around 15 years ago) to a rotation of 45-60 degrees (like it is taught in these past year) that I felt what I described to you. I think it is simply because mantaining balance in that degree of rotation requires more core work.

If you have a good core, that is a an advantage because it is easier for you to maintain good balance. Since you do, I don't think you have to worry about engaging the core, it's the other way around - work more on finding a good degree of rotation - and your core will do its job.

Regards

Lu
This core talk is very good for my own swim. You are correct. Angela does engage the core in her 15 of July clip. She just needs to find her degree of rotation that allows her the best use of her core. I post this to also learn my self, not just to help her. I am no coach.
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  #22  
Old 07-24-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinnAngela View Post
I think I understand. I can best articulate it by comparing it to how a worm crawls. You sort of "crawl" through the water. The obliques are engaged when you extend your lead arm.

Almost like climbing up a wall, but in doing so, you must keep your body close to the wall.

Does this make sense?

I bet 100 to 1 that Swimust understands.... ;)
OK, i'm reading through all these replies and I'm afraid taht I may have led everyone astray with my photos. When I said "ribs to pelvis", I meant evenly on both sides thorughout the stroke...not that you should pull the ribs to the pelvis on the side that is closest to the water...I meant the opposite of this...that to "engage the core" means not allowing the surface side to overtake the lower side which is seen expanding in the images I posted.

Hope that makes everythign clear as mud.

Although having said that I acknowledge that even olympians & world champions display a degree if this kind of side to side sway...but while we are focused on ways to improve our stroke and limit wasted energy leaks...we should try to maintain the spine like a skewer and rotate rather than bend side to side or front to back.
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  #23  
Old 07-25-2012
swimust swimust is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
OK, i'm reading through all these replies and I'm afraid that I may have led everyone astray with my photos. When I said "ribs to pelvis", I meant evenly on both sides throughout the stroke...not that you should pull the ribs to the pelvis on the side that is closest to the water...I meant the opposite of this...that to "engage the core" means not allowing the surface side to overtake the lower side which is seen expanding in the images I posted.

Hope that makes everything clear as mud.

Although having said that I acknowledge that even Olympians & world champions display a degree if this kind of side to side sway...but while we are focused on ways to improve our stroke and limit wasted energy leaks...we should try to maintain the spine like a skewer and rotate rather than bend side to side or front to back.
I busted my little head for a week about this issue. Yesterday finally I understood exactly the skewer rotation without needing your great explanation here. Just watched the Shinji in action and focused on his rotation and saw that.

Seriously, you can be a great help for the TI teaching methods and the documented theory.
No one does it like you, not even close.
Its about time that TI should clean its act about its teaching methods but who am I to judge... I am just an idiot trying to learn to swim a great swim style.
To my little opinion, TI does not get even a fraction of the public attention it really deserves. Maybe because of not good enough teaching methods?...
just a little opinion

Last edited by swimust : 07-25-2012 at 07:51 AM.
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  #24  
Old 07-25-2012
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swimust View Post
...Its about time that TI should clean its act about its teaching methods but who am I to judge... I am just an idiot trying to learn to swim a great swim style.
To my little opinion, TI does not get even a fraction of the public attention it really deserves. Maybe because of not good enough teaching methods?...
just a little opinion
When I decided to learn freestyle 3 years ago at the age of 55 I looked for explanations on the freestyle stroke and on coach-less explanations and teaching guides for the freestyle stroke.
I didn't find any that is even worth to be compared to Terry's systematic teaching system, e.g. explained in the 'Easy Freestyle' DVD. When you follow that you not only learn a fantstic freestyle stroke but you even learn to maintain your core the way Doc Sue described it (yes, I got a little confused by that 'bring your rib cage to the pelvis' stuff, but the pictures made it clear) without it being spelled out explicitly.
Although I wouldn't claim that I came to know all that exists as learning freestyle methods I still do declare that Terry with TI has found the best learning method ever. Is a bit bold but that song got to be sung.

I highly appreciate this work of Terry, I wouldn't have found the joy of swimming without it.

Why don't you use that, swimust, our discovery hero, instead of complaining that it wouldn't exist ;-))
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  #25  
Old 07-25-2012
azamy azamy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
Why don't you use that, swimust, our discovery hero, instead of complaining that it wouldn't exist ;-))
I swear I smile every time I read a new post, Swimust is going to be more famous than Shinji in TI forums.

No offense :-))
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  #26  
Old 07-25-2012
swimust swimust is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
Why don't you use that, swimust, our discovery hero, instead of complaining that it wouldn't exist ;-))
Because I dont read and understand.. Japanese.
I hope you have the capability to understand the line above. I doubt it very much.
Nothing beats your cozy box.... and with that I am done with you, no more replies from me to you.
I have a life to live. You can have the last word. I am not going DOWN there.

P.S. - Are you learning now the Shinji kick? Terry does that for few months. Just asking... no way you are doing that. You are busy with your DVD from few years ago and Shinji has nothing to offer to you. You dont even know what he does in the water but you are still sure about your ability to judge his swim. Thats Ridiculous.

P.S. no2 - you were in my ignore list so I havent replied any of your nonsense of the last day until this. I was just curious after seeing Azami quoting you. You are back to ignore now. bye bye seniorita.

Last edited by swimust : 07-25-2012 at 09:04 AM.
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  #27  
Old 07-25-2012
Rajan Rajan is offline
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Agreed. I had breathing problem while swimming. I followed so much techniques / reading material mentioned in the youtube/on internet, but it did not work. The reason I don't know.

Further, I was so crazy to swim like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=417pD_jfmJw I practiced a lot to follow this drill but failed. Again the reason I dont know.

After I purchased the TI DVD, the problem of breathing got disappeared and can also swim like as mentioned in the above drill but not like with stacked shoulders as done in above link. At present I can not believe that these problems had ever existed in my life. But still need improvement.

There are some other stroke related issues also that need to be improved, but I am sure with each passing day everything will be improved. There is no lack of enthusiasm.


Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
When I decided to learn freestyle 3 years ago at the age of 55 I looked for explanations on the freestyle stroke and on coach-less explanations and teaching guides for the freestyle stroke.
I didn't find any that is even worth to be compared to Terry's systematic teaching system, e.g. explained in the 'Easy Freestyle' DVD. When you follow that you not only learn a fantstic freestyle stroke but you even learn to maintain your core the way Doc Sue described it (yes, I got a little confused by that 'bring your rib cage to the pelvis' stuff, but the pictures made it clear) without it being spelled out explicitly.
Although I wouldn't claim that I came to know all that exists as learning freestyle methods I still do declare that Terry with TI has found the best learning method ever. Is a bit bold but that song got to be sung.

I highly appreciate this work of Terry, I wouldn't have found the joy of swimming without it.

Why don't you use that, swimust, our discovery hero, instead of complaining that it wouldn't exist ;-))

Last edited by Rajan : 07-25-2012 at 09:29 AM.
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  #28  
Old 07-26-2012
GregJS GregJS is offline
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Default the core issue - communication

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Here is one example...

It's less about strength and more about balance. Bring your ribs toward your pelvis in a way that it remains a solid connection throughout all parts of the stroke. This requires not more strength in your abdominals but a new kind of education of the muscles to isometrically contract in order to hold posture throughout dynamic movement of the torso.
I agree with those who said things to the effect that this is as clear and simple a description of how to engage the core as one could hope for. But then, a few posts later, it became apparent that some people interpreted it as referring to an alternating side-to-side movement - just the opposite of what was intended. Underscores how tough it can be to communicate this kind of thing.

As for myself, it's probably safe to say that just a few months ago, Coach Suzanne's description would not have meant anything to me. It is only after somehow - by sheer trial and error and blind experimentation - finding my way to engaging my pelvis as she describes that I can now read her description and see how wonderfully apt it is. And I would say that, at least so far, this one thing has helped my swimming more than any other single thing. It allowed all those other elements of balanced, efficient TI swimming that I had been working on to actually begin to work.

The tricky thing is that when you do not know how your core is supposed to feel and how it is supposed to fit in with the rest of your body - as I did not know - then you do not realize that there is anything wrong with it. After a lifetime of having a misaligned pelvis, that misalignment feels perfectly "normal" and you wouldn't suspect that it is negatively affecting you in any way. So you are not even looking for a way to work on it, and when you hear people discussing it you might think, "That has nothing to do with me."

Also, I did many years of yoga and other practices where core alignment is essential, and in all those years, not a single teacher noticed this basic misalignment and lack of proper core engagement in me. It is so subtle and easy to miss. Correcting it would have only required just a slight tilt here and a slight bit of healthy, dynamic tension applied "just so" there. But even after so many years, this never happened - and I had no idea anything was missing. I even thought I was pretty good at those practices.

My point is simply that this "not knowing" is something to be aware of, to look out for. It is easy to underestimate the significance of little core adjustments and easy to be totally oblivious to little (or even major) core misalignments. I do not have a solution to this, but this thread made me feel the need to highlight the very tricky nature of this whole issue.
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  #29  
Old 07-26-2012
swimust swimust is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregJS View Post
I agree with those who said things to the effect that this is as clear and simple a description of how to engage the core as one could hope for. But then, a few posts later, it became apparent that some people interpreted it as referring to an alternating side-to-side movement - just the opposite of what was intended. Underscores how tough it can be to communicate this kind of thing.

As for myself, it's probably safe to say that just a few months ago, Coach Suzanne's description would not have meant anything to me. It is only after somehow - by sheer trial and error and blind experimentation - finding my way to engaging my pelvis as she describes that I can now read her description and see how wonderfully apt it is. And I would say that, at least so far, this one thing has helped my swimming more than any other single thing. It allowed all those other elements of balanced, efficient TI swimming that I had been working on to actually begin to work.

The tricky thing is that when you do not know how your core is supposed to feel and how it is supposed to fit in with the rest of your body - as I did not know - then you do not realize that there is anything wrong with it. After a lifetime of having a misaligned pelvis, that misalignment feels perfectly "normal" and you wouldn't suspect that it is negatively affecting you in any way. So you are not even looking for a way to work on it, and when you hear people discussing it you might think, "That has nothing to do with me."

Also, I did many years of yoga and other practices where core alignment is essential, and in all those years, not a single teacher noticed this basic misalignment and lack of proper core engagement in me. It is so subtle and easy to miss. Correcting it would have only required just a slight tilt here and a slight bit of healthy, dynamic tension applied "just so" there. But even after so many years, this never happened - and I had no idea anything was missing. I even thought I was pretty good at those practices.

My point is simply that this "not knowing" is something to be aware of, to look out for. It is easy to underestimate the significance of little core adjustments and easy to be totally oblivious to little (or even major) core misalignments. I do not have a solution to this, but this thread made me feel the need to highlight the very tricky nature of this whole issue.
So... is a log "a log" OR "not a log"? serious question.
Suzanne explained the post in your quote later, and told us peasants to use the spine as a skewer. I watched Shinji carefully and his body rotation after hip roll is indeed a log rotation of the whole length of the torso. Its a pelvis rotation, not a "ribs twisting differently than hips" rotation. Am I correct? (I know I am).

Quote:
...It is only after somehow - by sheer trial and error and blind experimentation - finding my way...
When I do that for maybe 2 years (I cant speak Japanese), everyone here laughs at me as if I am some kind of a loony.
go figure people...

Last edited by swimust : 07-26-2012 at 03:21 AM.
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  #30  
Old 07-26-2012
GregJS GregJS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swimust View Post
So... is a log "a log" OR "not a log"? serious question.
Suzanne explained the post in your quote later, and told us peasants to use the spine as a skewer. I watched Shinji carefully and his body rotation after hip roll is indeed a log rotation of the whole length of the torso. Its a pelvis rotation, not a "ribs twisting differently than hips" rotation. Am I correct? (I know I am).


When I do that for maybe 2 years (I cant speak Japanese), everyone here laughs at me as if I am some kind of a loony.
go figure people...
Yes, Suzanne's later description of "spine as skewer" - as well as your image of "log rotation" - do help clarify the matter. Again, wonderful descriptions. Maybe that is all that can be done to communicate these things to those who do not even suspect that these things need communicating?

People laugh at you because you cannot speak Japanese??? How rude! But I can't help you with that one, I'm afraid. But I'll bet there's some great website out there that will teach you (through total immersion, of course) easy, fish-like Japanese. Although you'll probably need to engage your core to do it properly, so we're back to that whole mess again...sigh...
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