Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 10-06-2010
splashingpat splashingpat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 589
splashingpat
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flppr View Post
i liken
to underhand casting a fishing line off the side of a pier.
at first,
its all fishing rod (upper arm) moving forward, with
the fishing line (lower arm) lagging behind

then

the pole's movement stops, and
its all fishing line moving forward, and then
the lure (hand) plops vertically into the water (mail slot).

we can
(N't)
do this !

yes
we
can!

i can "see" it 2 and
i like listenN & learnN
to you guys as well

do the wheels on the bicycle
r kinda set up and
work the same way?

i love to fish
i like to bike but most of all I'm going to
be learnN how to FLY who is joinN me?

Last edited by splashingpat : 10-07-2010 at 01:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-06-2010
atreides atreides is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 293
atreides
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex-SG View Post
Hello Atreides,

I think I understand your problem. Once again this is another problem we share :)

A few minutes after, when we switch to Freestyle, the same forearm and hand are supposed to clear the water surface !!!

By what magic can we possibly lead with the elbow and have the hand 30cm higher than in the drill?
Shall we lead with the elbow and increase the elbow angle so that the hand is further away from the body?

ALEX
I feel your pain. But as an engineer (I think you are an engineer), you need to explain why this is so effective. Is it just setting up a better catch or is there some sort of "ground effects" going on with keeping your hand lower throughout the recovery. Swimmers that reach out on the recovery can push their legs lower in the water. Perhaps that was what was happening to me. Keeping the hand under the elbow keeps my feet higher and decreases drag allowing me (and perhaps you) to get more out of the pull/rotation phase. I always knew that I swam more effortlessly in fins because my feet were higher in the water but I seemed to be powerless to make it happen (feet higher) on my own.

The problem is creating a scenario where I do this all of the time and don't backslide in to old habits. I now know I was cheating on zen/swing switches because I was dragging my hand forward in the water. It's like Flippr says. You have to "learn" move your upper arm first before you move your forearm like when casting a fishing reel underhand. If I can learn to do this consistently, I think my breathing problems are over. I am a much happier, faster, and yes, oxygenated swimmer when I can swim this way.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-06-2010
Rincewind Rincewind is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 340
Rincewind
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atreides View Post
I feel your pain. But as an engineer (I think you are an engineer), you need to explain why this is so effective. Is it just setting up a better catch or is there some sort of "ground effects" going on with keeping your hand lower throughout the recovery.
When I get the 'leading with the elbow' right I feel like there is more weight shifted sooner on the front part of my body, I guess this is due to the combined weights of the upper and lower arms. I actually feel my head sink more and feet rise as a result.

I think thats the main benefit.

Other side benefits might be that you waste less energy and certain muscle groups get a chance to completely relax during the recovery.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-06-2010
atreides atreides is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 293
atreides
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
When I get the 'leading with the elbow' right I feel like there is more weight shifted sooner on the front part of my body, I guess this is due to the combined weights of the upper and lower arms. I actually feel my head sink more and feet rise as a result.

I think thats the main benefit.

Other side benefits might be that you waste less energy and certain muscle groups get a chance to completely relax during the recovery.
I think you're right. At times I felt my legs literally flying up and my head felt the same way as when I have fins on. I never liked my head being way because there seemed to be water around my mouth all of the time. But that was back when I wasn't rotating very well. Now that I can enjoy the "rush" of more velocity, I just find a place in the water to breathe and do so. Although I admit to being more relaxed mainly because if you do it right you almost just "dropping anchor" at the end, I think I'm more tense in shoulders because I have to move my shoulder to move my upper arm and also maintain discipline to not move my lower arm. When I finally move my lower arm and hand just before entry, it feel like I am flicking a knife underhanded. It's like I'm uncoiling or something. I wonder if there is a more natural feeling I should have or more to the point a feeling that let's me know I did it right.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-07-2010
RadSwim RadSwim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 201
RadSwim
Default Recovery may not be worth worrying about

I have been a TI student for 5.5 years and went through a phase where I focused a lot on recovery technique.

With more experience, one of the things that impresses me is how little my recovery style matters. Today, I played with every type of recovery from high elbow with my thumb literally dragging up the side of my chest to a locked elbow straight arm recovery -- it feels different but makes very little difference in the important stuff -- the underwater action stays almost the same.

My usual recovery is a wide low C-shaped recovery with my hand leading my elbow. I have found that this style minimizes the frequency with which I get a sore shoulder.

Karlyn Pipes-Neilsen recommends any recovery that feels good -- swimmer's choice. I believe her.

Don't sweat the recovery too much...it's all good.

RadSwim
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-07-2010
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 787
haschu33
Default

atreides,

You got long arms, if I got it right.
What happens if you do those 'elbow circles' that Terry does in lesson 5 of 'Easy Freestyle' ? Does it feel easy?
I noticed that it requires some shoulder flexibility, and for me those elbow circles are at the limit of my shoulder flexibility. When I watch Shinji in his videos he can bring his elbow up (which actually is more to the back) a lot more than I can.
Maybe your shoulder doesn't like it, and that is the simple reason. In that case I think the priority should definetely go to save the shoulder and sacrifice the graceful recovery.

I currently have my focus solely on recovery and rhythm. Although I have to admit that I am not convinced that the recovery plays such a big role, I somewhat trust that Terry has a point here. I mainly do that because an elbow lead recovery adds more grace to the stroke.
I noticed that the most important point in recovery is to create a momentum at the end of the pull that 'swings' your arm forward in recovery. I mean that the forward movement mainly is from this initial momentum and not through deliberately holding the arm during recovery.
But I could imagine that you get the same effect with a more straight arm recovery, just the entry gets more splashy. Which is not gracefull and might add a little more wasted energy. And if your shoulder flexibility is not very good, and you rotate to 'just enough' rotation only, you might end with doing a kind of 'flat' circle around and just above the water with your hand leading because that is all your shoulder can do.
Maybe Terry can shed some light here.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-07-2010
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London, UK
Posts: 804
Lawrence
Default

'Leading with the elbow' undoubtedly results in a more effective stroke although you need to be careful not to take the phrase too literally. It isn't physically possible to lead very far with the elbow. The point is that you should lead with it as far as is comfortable.

There is a lot of complicated discussion on this thread about leading with the elbow. It can be reduced substantially if you simply remember to let the forearm go loose during recovery, with a forward swing towards the end of recovery to get the hand into the right position to re-enter the water. I have never found it necessary to think about elbow circles or the like. I just drag my fingertips over the water and try to ensure my hand re-enters on a wide track.

Last edited by Lawrence : 10-08-2010 at 07:29 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-07-2010
atreides atreides is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 293
atreides
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
atreides,

You got long arms, if I got it right.
What happens if you do those 'elbow circles' that Terry does in lesson 5 of 'Easy Freestyle' ? Does it feel easy?
.
Not at first. This morning I started doing the elbow circles exercise with the idea of holding my forearm back. My right shoulder seemed to be more flexible where as my left shoulder seemed to have my forearm locked in a 90 degree angle. I swam a couple of laps and it loosened up. I don't think this is in my mind as the glide speed that I have picked up is surprising. Lawrence's observation is on the mark as the trick is to hold the forearm back as long as you can while advancing the upper arm with the shoulder. I think that Rincewind speculated that the additional weight pushes your upper body down lifting your hips and legs will decrease drag from them. Being long legged I was no doubt experiencing more drag from them and so the additional relief was welcome.

I also think that advancing your shoulder set you up for a superior catch. You can try it sitting in a chair. First put your forearm in the position that it usually is in when you finish a pull. Now bring it forward so that you have moved it 150 degrees or more by the time your hand passes your shoulders. In other words your arm should be nearly horizontal as you raise it out of the water. Now spear and set a catch. Do the same thing but instead hold your
forearm so that it doesn't pass 90 degrees as you move it foreward. Hold it as long as you can and then spear and set your catch. When I do this my catch is easier and further in front of me. I know that Terry has said that this kind of shoulder activity can be dangerous but apparently I need to do this to overcome by backside drag problems. And maybe I'm not doing any more than he does because his forearm is vertical until it gets pass his shoulder whereas Shinji's moves it a bit further. At least this gives me something to work on and some hope.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-09-2010
Alex-SG Alex-SG is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Dubai
Posts: 415
Alex-SG
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flppr View Post
i liken recovery to underhand casting a fishing line off the side of a pier. at first, its all fishing rod (upper arm) moving forward, with the fishing line (lower arm) lagging behind. then the pole's movement stops, and its all fishing line moving forward, and then the lure (hand) plops vertically into the water (mail slot).
Excellent analogy FLPPR, thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-09-2010
Alex-SG Alex-SG is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Dubai
Posts: 415
Alex-SG
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atreides View Post
I feel your pain. But as an engineer (I think you are an engineer), you need to explain why this is so effective. Is it just setting up a better catch or is there some sort of "ground effects" going on with keeping your hand lower throughout the recovery.
Yes I am an Engineer as well (although my EE background does not help much here).

My understanding is that TI relies on the whole body being propelled forward around the anchor hand. This requires:
a. A well timed 2BK -> hip-drive
b. High elbows (to bring the body to a horizontal position, lift legs prior to the spear)
c. High elbows again (to spear at an angle which maximizes forward motion and puts the hand in the right X,Y coordinate for the next catch

I also have problems with a high elbow recovery. Combined with my slow stroke rate (SR=1.7) this creates a balance problem and my "Wannabee 2-Beat Kick" becomes a continuous kick to help legs stay at the surface.

ALEX

Last edited by Alex-SG : 10-09-2010 at 10:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.