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  #1  
Old 10-05-2010
atreides atreides is offline
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atreides
Default Compact Recovery

Saturday, I experienced a first. I had someone video me with an Iphone. Putting aside my breathing issues, I was more interested in my mechanics particularly on the recovery. It was at the end of a workout so maybe part of it was that I was tired. But I was alarmed (horrified is more like it) to see my right arm exiting the water after the pull phase and almost immediately moving upwards out of the water and ahead of my elbow only to reenter with a resounding splash. On my left hand during the recovery phase my hand actually stayed under elbow longer and entered with a lot less splash. The result was an asymmetric stroke cycle and a feeling that I was standing still even though some progress was made.

I've been working on keeping my right hand under elbow as I first try to move my shoulder forward and rather than reaching forward with my hand, move my upper arm as much as I can and then entering the water with a lot less splash. The result is almost startling. When I do it right, my forward momentum and glide feel significantly more pronounced. To get this right, I 'm practicing swing switch in fins, first with hand fully submerged and gradually moving them up. However I realize that you can still get this wrong because even if you drag your hand forward, it can still get out from under your elbow too quickly resulting in the horrific and counterproductive stroke cycle I was experiencing.

First, can someone explain the physics of why momentum is enhanced by keeping the hand under elbow (leading with elbow) or is this some of sort of hallucination I'm suffering. Second, what other drills can I do to guarantee that I eventually remember the right way to do this.
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Old 10-05-2010
aquascum aquascum is offline
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What is a 'swing switch'?

I'm stuck in lesson 5, do swing switches come later?
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  #3  
Old 10-05-2010
atreides atreides is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquascum View Post
What is a 'swing switch'?

I'm stuck in lesson 5, do swing switches come later?
Yes. He introduces them in lesson 6 and spends a lot of time on them in lesson 7. He show you a little 'exercise' you can do to get the motion right. However it is easy for me to deceive myself into thinking I'm doing it right (leading with my elbows) when I'm really not. As far as I can tell when you move your arm forward on recovery, your hand should be behind or perpendicular to your elbow for as long as you can hold it that way. If you notice when Shinji recovers, his hand is almost perpendicular to his elbow at the point it passes his shoulders. Terry moves his hands forward (in front of his elbow) a little before Shinji does. The result is that Shinji angle of attack is steeper than Terry's. In my case my hand was in front of my elbow the moment it exited the water.
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Old 10-05-2010
flppr flppr is offline
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atreides,
are you able to turn your wrist and hand completely off in recovery? i find that when i do that, it makes for a more c-shaped recovery and quiet spear.
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Old 10-05-2010
Rincewind Rincewind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atreides View Post
In my case my hand was in front of my elbow the moment it exited the water.
How is that possible? Did you not complete the stroke?

Seems like if you complete the stroke and your hand exits somewhere around your hips there is no way it can be in front of the elbow at the exit.
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Old 10-05-2010
atreides atreides is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flppr View Post
atreides,
are you able to turn your wrist and hand completely off in recovery? i find that when i do that, it makes for a more c-shaped recovery and quiet spear.
I think that I do. My problem had more to do with starting my spear too early if that makes any sense. Rather than holding my hand back until at least it passes my shoulder I was almost reaching for the water as soon as my hand came out of the water after the pull. If you watch Terry and Shinji, they don't start their spearing action until their hand passes the shoulder. When I do this correctly (at least as far as can imagine it), I generate significantly more power and glide capability. But also find myself backsliding so I need to figure out a key to tell me that my hand is in the right position for long enough so that when I begin my spear I get that propulsion that I want.
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Old 10-05-2010
atreides atreides is offline
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atreides
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
How is that possible? Did you not complete the stroke?

Seems like if you complete the stroke and your hand exits somewhere around your hips there is no way it can be in front of the elbow at the exit.
Maybe not the moment that my hand exits the water but soon afterwards. Like I mentioned to flippr, it was like I was reaching for the water as soon as I finished the pull. I definitely wasn't leading with my elbow.
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  #8  
Old 10-06-2010
flppr flppr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atreides View Post
I think that I do. My problem had more to do with starting my spear too early if that makes any sense. Rather than holding my hand back until at least it passes my shoulder I was almost reaching for the water as soon as my hand came out of the water after the pull. If you watch Terry and Shinji, they don't start their spearing action until their hand passes the shoulder. When I do this correctly (at least as far as can imagine it), I generate significantly more power and glide capability. But also find myself backsliding so I need to figure out a key to tell me that my hand is in the right position for long enough so that when I begin my spear I get that propulsion that I want.
i don't know, atreides. "holding my hand back" doesn't sound right, either. can you post your video?
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  #9  
Old 10-06-2010
Alex-SG Alex-SG is offline
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Hello Atreides,

I think I understand your problem. Once again this is another problem we share :)

My SPL drops from 16 to 14 after doing 45minutes of ZipperSkate, ZipperSwitch/ZenSwitch (basically skating while lifting/moving forward the elbow and then adding multiple switches). Clearly I am not leading with my elbows naturally, but apparently I do after 45min of drilling.

I sometimes wonder if leading with the hand is not something natural for us to do in order to clear the water. When we do ZenSwithes drills and skate at 45deg rotation, we try to have a relaxed forearm/hand inside the water. A few minutes after, when we switch to Freestyle, the same forearm and hand are supposed to clear the water surface !!!

By what magic can we possibly lead with the elbow and have the hand 30cm higher than in the drill?
Shall we lead with the elbow and increase the elbow angle so that the hand is further away from the body?

ALEX
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  #10  
Old 10-06-2010
flppr flppr is offline
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i liken recovery to underhand casting a fishing line off the side of a pier. at first, its all fishing rod (upper arm) moving forward, with the fishing line (lower arm) lagging behind. then the pole's movement stops, and its all fishing line moving forward, and then the lure (hand) plops vertically into the water (mail slot).
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