Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-08-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default A swimming background?

Dont know these TI coaches , but it seems one has a swimming background and the other doesnt. If someone knows them, curious to hear the answer.
What is it precisly that makes one swimmers look better than the other?
In one swimmer I see a rocksteady foundation on which the arms and legs act in good timing and minimal excessive motion.
The arm and leg mechanics are also better , and I hope some people will see how a deep spear is not the best start for an optimal armpull either.
its not the most important, but every part has its effect on the whole sequence.
The most evident difference is that the first swimmer has a more stable core and better syncronised connection to limbs.
Just compare and try to learn something from it for your own stroke.
The swimmer gone TI?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBsUdUOJpyU
The adult learner?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjqpQVOx2OM

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-08-2015 at 10:36 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-08-2015
truwani truwani is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 98
truwani
Default

Indeed what a difference! Must say I do not like the second swimming at all

But probably you have different levels among TI coaches.
Shinji is still my favorite

Do not know where you have found the second video, I would not call this level 'coach', but then again who am I
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-12-2015
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,453
CoachSuzanne
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by truwani View Post
Indeed what a difference! Must say I do not like the second swimming at all

But probably you have different levels among TI coaches.
Shinji is still my favorite

Do not know where you have found the second video, I would not call this level 'coach', but then again who am I
How would you judge coaching ability without perhaps receiving a lesson from her?
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-12-2015
truwani truwani is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 98
truwani
Default

Well there are several aspects to coaching, let me focus on two:

- teaching/pedagogic quality:this you cannot judge from a swimming video.
In my view you do not necessarily need to be a good swimmer for this:reading Terry's books and trying to understand every detail could do.then you can 'explain how'

- show how to do it: for this you need to be able yourself to apply the theory of the first point.
This is the 'show how'. For her I do not judge this point as good

My comment is merely on the second point.lots of people are visual learners, so I think it's an important point
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-12-2015
IngeA IngeA is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Germany
Posts: 150
IngeA
Default

But in the second point, normally you don't have to point out the fault in whole stroke. Often not even in the water. It can be shown in special drills or by overdrawing the point of question to make it clear.

In the second video the coach has a lack of rhythm. Rhythm you can't really show or explain. It's something you have to feel. In whole stroke or in drills, but you can't really copy it from a good swimmer.
You can do drills to improve it, you can focus on the correct timing (which can be explained), but rhythm only is there, if the correct timing is felt, not if you have to concentrate on correct timing.

If the coach had to be better in technique than the athlete, all our world best athletes would be their own coaches, because who should be better then the best?

My main sport at the moment is ving tsun. There are lots of trainings partners much better than me, but I see their faults and correct them the same as they do when I do something wrong. I can do this, because I know how the technique should be done end see the technique from a different point of view. From the point of the partner who feels the fault in practice or from the point of a "spectator" looking at two doing a exercise. And sometimes to make something clear, we take a handy and film the partners in exercise and then point out the faults. Also this often is helpful, because that what you think and feel you are doing differs a lot from that you are really doing.

Of cause there are limits: In a sport that is not stationary like mountain climbing, sailing or whitewater canoeing, the coach has to be able to guide the trip and also to be able to rescue someone if necessary. But there the coach not only has to convey technique, but also the correct behavior in different situations caused by the environment.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-12-2015
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,380
Richardsk
Default

Many coaches can't swim at all, but on the other hand some are former competitive swimmers. As far as I know Bob Bowman was never a swimmer. James Counsilman was a good swimmer and swam the English Channel in his 'sixties.

I think most TI coaches, if not all, do swim, but not necessarily all with the same elegance. The ability to spot what's wrong with a learner's stroke and fix it does not depend on one's own ability to swim beautifully.

It would be interesting to go through a list of famous coaches and see how many were good swimmers themselves.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-12-2015
truwani truwani is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 98
truwani
Default

I fully agree that most top athletes outperform their coaches

But here we are not talking about that spectrum, from the video it's quite clear we are on a much lower level. Quite sure most TI members that are beyond the pure beginners level would not be very inspired if this were the coach's swim, but maybe that's just my personnel view
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-12-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

There are great swimmers who cant explain what they are doing.
Spoke to a guy with a very nice stroke. Wanted to know something about his kicking. He said he hardly kicked. Took a look underwater. Pretty big 6BK.
A lot of them swim just on instinct.

Then there are lesser swimmers who can explain exactly what they are doing and why, but when looking at their stroke ,you really dont want to know.

For a coach who starts explaining how a stroke should feel, I would like to know how his own swimming looks and if its something I would like to mimic.
For a theoretical coach who is looking more from a hydrodynamic mechanical view to the stroke, he doesnt have to be a great swimmer himself.
For the fitness knowledge of the stroke a coach also doesnt need to be a good swimmer probably.

My ideal coach swims the way I would want to swim, knows why is swimming that way and can exactly tell how it feels and what should be changed to achieve the same results.

IngeA


Quote:
In the second video the coach has a lack of rhythm. Rhythm you can't really show or explain. It's something you have to feel. In whole stroke or in drills, but you can't really copy it from a good swimmer.
You can do drills to improve it, you can focus on the correct timing (which can be explained), but rhythm only is there, if the correct timing is felt, not if you have to concentrate on correct timing.
A swimmer without rhythm is a pain to watch, but I am more optimistic about the possibilities to improve it.
Have you seen the stuff from ´finding freestyle´? Probably a bit too much outside the TI box, but you could try some stuff sometime.
They focus a lot on the timing aspect of the stroke and also learning building blocks to let the swimmer instinctevly learn to compose his freestyle making use of these learnt building blocks.
I think sometimes a complete overhaul of the stroke is needed, but thats a step too far for many.
We cant expect miracles though.
Most will still look like the white dude amongst the soul train dancers.
for the younger readers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBXv37PFcAQ

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-12-2015 at 02:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-12-2015
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IngeA View Post
In the second video the coach has a lack of rhythm. Rhythm you can't really show or explain. It's something you have to feel. In whole stroke or in drills, but you can't really copy it from a good swimmer.
You can do drills to improve it, you can focus on the correct timing (which can be explained), but rhythm only is there, if the correct timing is felt, not if you have to concentrate on correct timing.
This gets to the crux of a question that torments teachers of all skills. A famous mathematician once said that the best students of mathematics are the ones for whom the teacher is almost superfluous. Good dancers presumably have a better then average sense of rhythm, but they also possess the ability to pick up and imitate new rhythms faster than others. They do this in part using formal tools, where they have to concentrate on correct timing, in contrast to what IngeA is saying above.

The extent to which each of us can learn good rhythm is clearly a big variable, but it is also fair to say that each of us can improve on what we start out with by practice and using formal methods such as drills. I would also conjecture that rhythm belongs to a large class of skills, such as learning foreign languages, where your ability to learn is age dependent.

The secondary question is the extent to which one needs a teacher or coach with good rhythm or, more simply, how good a swimmer does your coach need to be? To me, the answer depends on where you are in your swimming education and what your specific needs are. ZT has some clear ideas of what he wants in a coach, which is good because he is a very critical student. He also seems to want someone with at least as good a sense of rhythm as he himself (a presumption on my part) and who are we to disagree with him?

As for me, I have never used a coach, although I ask everyone far and wide for advice, whenever I get the chance. I wouldn't exclude the possibility that either of these TI coaches have something valuable to teach me, but I would need to interact with them to find the answer to that.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-13-2015
IngeA IngeA is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Germany
Posts: 150
IngeA
Default

It's difficult for me to explain what I mean and presumably I don't understand all of that you want to say :o)
Next try:
Of cause one can train timing. By drills or just by doing whole stroke on slow motion and concentrating on the correct time to kick (par example, because kicking the right time is not all of the correct timing in freestyle).
In doing the exercise some times the timing works better (and feeling better), some times it doesn't work like you want to and it also feels queer. You try to find out, alone or with a coach what you do when the stroke feels better compared to your "normal" stroke. And so by the time, the better timings were geting more often and some time, the right timing comes without concentrating on timing, because you feel when is the correct time to kick and kick automatically.
And you also can train rhythm, par example with a tempo trainer or with music. Here I separate timing and rhythm, because it is not completely the same. You can have a good timing, but a bad rhythm, when the strokes not all are done in the same speed.
You also can have a good rhythm but a bad timing, doing the kicks all the same, but the wrong time.
But all the two, timing and rhythm can be trained, can be explained, it can be explained how it feels but to be successful you have too feel yourself the correct timing an you have to feel yourself how a good rhythm feels.

If the coach says: "It feels fluent and as you fly through the water with no effort" it's a nice hint that such a feeling exists, but if you yourself have had once this feeling you know, you would have recognized without the explanation of the coach.

In swimming I have no coach.
In the other sports I did, I had all sorts of coaches. Some who never did this sport by themselves (par example a really good Trainer in artistic gymnastics), one who once was participant in the olympic games and all mixtures between.
It's great to have coach who himself is good at the sport you do. He is an ideal how you like to be or at least how you want to succeed in this sport.
But the Olympic participant was not my favored trainer in archery. I liked more an "only" average comrade (and I learned much more while training with him). Perhaps it was because I never wanted to participate any greater events in archery and the high level archer did not understand that at all.
And I had a coach with no own experience in that sport who was fantastic in explaining, who had really perfect coordinated sets of exercises leading me step by step to the goal and who was able to encourage me even if all seems to go amiss.
For me the personality of a coach is much more important than his own skills in that sport. If it's the right coach for me I have to try and it may also be, that a coach fits me for the beginning and I have to change at some point. If I see good progress in my sport, it's the right trainer. If I have no progress with a professional trainer, for me it's the wrong trainer. And the one who is good for me can be the wrong coach for another.
So I stick on this: it's not possible to judge the general qualities of a coach by his own sportive skills. Good coaching not only depends on the coach but also if the coach matches to the athlete. Good sportive skills of the coach are a nice bonus, but not indispensable for all athletes.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.