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  #1  
Old 12-06-2015
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Default Paltrinieri world record SC 1500

Some of you may already know that Gregorio Paltrinieri has set a new world record for the 1500 SC, beating Grant Hackett's previous mark. I don't think a video is available yet but the result with splits is available from the LEN site. Click 'Events' and scroll down.


http://netanya2015.microplustiming.com/

Last edited by Richardsk : 12-06-2015 at 08:26 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-07-2015
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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I saw the race:

He held a steady 17-18SPL, estimated avg rate above 90SPM. His loping style maybe helps him in holding such a high rate (don't forget he's also a tall guy with long levers, so that stroke rate is even more impressive).

In the lengths where he hit 17SPL he always added a sneaky breath before the turn, so that he always took 9 breaths per length and 37-38 breaths per minute. Now let me go off topic for a while: how many breaths per minute do we allow ourselves when swimming at race pace? In my last 1500 scm time trial I allowed me 24-27 breaths per minute, breathing every 2 strokes and with the sneaky breath before the turn (ie as often as possible given my stroke rate and turn speed). It felt enough oxygen for my exertion level. All elite swimmers breathe much more, Sun Yang compensates for his slow SR by breathing 1:1 into and out of the walls. They ask themselves more and also feed their muscles with more air. We probably limit ourselves without knowing and are not used to feed our muscles as much as required to let them unleash their full potential.

Back to Paltrinieri's world record: he broke Grant Hackett's (2001) record by over 2s in spite of:

- not good turns: he surfaces at or before the 5m mark
- not straight line: sometimes he circles in the lane as if sharing it with other swimmers :)
- not good start
- not adding kick in the last 50m

Many improvements areas. If he improved some of the above points (especially the turns), I believe he could go under 14min scm. If those 1500 were without walls I think he could easily beat Sun Yang (I guess he can beat him anyway at Rio). But he seems to not care about those improvement areas because he's got the engine. "He's got the engine", that's what his dryland trainer - which I was pleased to meet yesterday - told me yesterday. Gregorio also trains his kick regularly, but then he just doesn't use it in the race, not even in the last length.

Salvo
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Old 12-07-2015
terry terry is offline
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Salvo
Though I didn't see the swim, I'm impressed with your critique of it. I wonder if even Paltrinieri's coach took note of all his improvement opportunities. My guess is he doesn't study Gregorio's swimming as you do. Rather he's probably preoccupied with what his stopwatch says. Otherwise, would there be so many errors in a swimmer capable of a WR?

Just out of curiosity, what's your swimming background? The fact that you do time trials suggests you are pretty serious. Have you ever done any coaching?

I looked up his height. He's 6'3" - 190cm. At that height his 17-18 SPL is in the upper reaches of his Green Zone. If I were coaching him, I'd have him train at 14 to 16 strokes--and maybe even 13-15--until he learns to generate the same pace at those stroke counts.

Quite a few years ago I watched Ous Mellouli of Tunisia and USC and Peter vanderKaay of US and Michigan race the 1500m at NCAA Chanpionships. (Both have won Olympic gold medals--Mellouli in 10K and VdK in the 4 x 200 relay) The two of them matched strokes for 1350 meters. Both held 13SPL and left the rest of the field (who were taking 15-16 strokes) far behind. In the final 150m, Mellouli smoothly upshifted to 14 then 15 strokes while VdK abruptly jumped to 15-16 strokes. Mellouli won easily.
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Old 12-08-2015
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
Salvo
Though I didn't see the swim, I'm impressed with your critique of it. I wonder if even Paltrinieri's coach took note of all his improvement opportunities. My guess is he doesn't study Gregorio's swimming as you do. Rather he's probably preoccupied with what his stopwatch says. Otherwise, would there be so many errors in a swimmer capable of a WR?

Just out of curiosity, what's your swimming background? The fact that you do time trials suggests you are pretty serious. Have you ever done any coaching?
Hi Terry,
wow thanks for the compliment! I like Gregorio because he's like a wild horse, a pure talent who flies high and light and wins despite all. I'm always fashinated by these natural winners. Take Maradona: short, often overweighted, crazy, unable to kick the ball with the right foot... The best soccer player ever, born to play soccer.

I have no swimming background: like many others, in 2011 while asking myself how I could swim more than 100m fs without burning my shoulders, I happened to see the famous Shinji's video on YouTube, then I read your book and my life changed. I became addicted to swimming, I can't never get enough. As you recently wrote, when I finish a swimming session I already can't wait for the next one. Too bad that I have to do something else for living...

As for the time trials, it's just that I like to constantly measure my improvements and have a clear picture of where I am. I keep a detailed training log, take statistics, trends, comparisons over time etc. I like the process :)
And for now I'm not a threat for Gregorio yet (10 minutes behind over 1500 scm, but I'm closing the gap :))

Cheers,
Salvo
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Old 12-09-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I also think Paltrinieri belongs to a special category.
Do normal rules apply to abnormal people?
Do rules for abnormal people apply to normal people?
For me Paltrinieri belongs in the same box as Janet Evans.
Build like a bird. Huge aerobic powr to weight ratio. Tended to lift off from the water and move as much body over the water instead of through it.
For other swimmers this strategy is impossible to sustain.
Imagine Ian Thorpe swimming the way Paltrinieri is doing.
Almost no kick, a big through the body lope and a lot of upperbody power swimming like a chicken trying to take off.
He would brake down after 100m. Too much bodymass relative to surface area.
We are not able to speed up like a powerboat and totally achieve hydroplaning, but lifting the body only a few percent out of the water already increases speed.
Not much, and it takes a lot of extra power, but for some, those who are build like birds, it can give them this extra 0.5% they need.
If Paltrinieri would bulk up, trying to get even stronger to make those long powerful strokes, he is done and over.
We have Mack Horton trying that approach (which is working pretty well for him)
Off course, using everything else that decrease his drag and improving his turns is a good thing.
Maybe sending energy to his legs is so inefficient for him that a short streamline is the best optimum for him.
Have to take a look at those pushoffs.
Pieter van de Hoogenband had a normal kick but even he was a relative fast surface swimmer and slow underwater swimmer.
The skinny vd Hoogenband also moves pretty light. short pushoff, with a higher strokerate compared to heavy looking Thorpe with his long catchup timing. Yet he was faster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T9PCyVd9J4 (from 1m min15, semis and final)
They spend a lot of time optimizing the relative armtiming and frequency for a certain speed to achieve the best speed for effort compromise and the above stroke was the outcome.
http://www.tri-experience.com/upload...ie_theorie.pdf

If only we could have identical twins to test different stroke techniques....


Where can I read the paper where is stated that the fastest swimmers use less force than the swimmers one step lower on the ladder by the way?

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-09-2015 at 02:03 PM.
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  #6  
Old 12-09-2015
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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In case you didn't know, this is another impressive performance by Gregorio on April 2014: he swam 5000m indoor in 50'56"60 (1000m splits 10'03"66, 20'12"16, 30'27"31, 40'44"58), improving the previous record (51'35"37 on April 2013 by Gregorio himself) by 40s.

http://www.federnuoto.it/discipline/...da-record.html
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Old 12-09-2015
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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That's very impressive, Salvo, and I'm also impressed by the fact that you are only ten minutes behind Gregorio over 1500 meters. I would be more like thirty minutes behind. My last 1500 was three years ago in a time of over forty minutes.

Gabriele Detti is also a fine swimmer. Italy seems to produce lots of good swimmers but Paltrinieri may well be the best ever.

If his coach can get him to improve his turns he should be very hard to beat in Rio, but of course nothing can be taken for granted. Who knows what sensational new swimmer may appear?
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Old 12-14-2015
terry terry is offline
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Salvo
I'd never heard of a record for 5000m in a pool. I wonder who keeps such records. If FINA does, I wasn't aware.
GP's splits of 10:03, 10:09, 10:15, 10:17, 10:08 are a bit uneven, suggesting there's room to improve it by a swimmer who could split more evenly--close to 10:10 for each 1km then finishing stronger.

A swimmer I coached once did 4 x 100 scm on 1:00, keeping them between :57 and :59. That was about 30 years ago. Today he's nearly 50.
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  #9  
Old 12-14-2015
terry terry is offline
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PS: Salvo, what's your age?
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Old 12-14-2015
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Interesting that Paltrinieri could manage only a silver at the Duel in the Pool. Close race but Jaeger emerged on top with a new American record.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nDT4ZSNLxo
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