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  #1  
Old 03-05-2011
cynthcor cynthcor is offline
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cynthcor
Default Rotation - Over Rotation vs Just Enough

Hey everybody. Finally managed to get back in the pool today for a focused meditative swim after 2 weeks of craziness at work and some really cold water that made swimming feel more like a workout than the joy that I'd previously been experiencing.

I'm trying to get a better understanding of rotation/over rotation/just enough and spent the majority of my swim today focusing on breathing equally on both sides in preparation for OW season.

I found this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhubEayA1Qk

and wanted some reflection on the rotation that the swimmer uses when she swtiches to whole stroke at the end of the clip. I'm not sure how old the clip is, possibly this is before the current just enough focus, but it just appears to me that she's over rotating.
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  #2  
Old 03-05-2011
westyswoods westyswoods is offline
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westyswoods
Default Over rotation

I agree that as TI is currently taught the whole stroke shows over rotation. It is difficult to ascertain if this is what has been taught or if it is more a result of trying to keep balance, especially evident on breathing stokes.

Not to long ago this was more towards the normal than the just enough philosophy of today.

Ideally if we keep a flat back not allowing the arm to move behind us during recovery while the fingers drag along the water in a straight line from exit to spear, this should give about proper rotation.

Swim Silent and Be Well
Westy
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  #3  
Old 03-06-2011
CoachKevin CoachKevin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynthcor View Post
Hey everybody. Finally managed to get back in the pool today for a focused meditative swim after 2 weeks of craziness at work and some really cold water that made swimming feel more like a workout than the joy that I'd previously been experiencing.

I'm trying to get a better understanding of rotation/over rotation/just enough and spent the majority of my swim today focusing on breathing equally on both sides in preparation for OW season.

I found this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhubEayA1Qk

and wanted some reflection on the rotation that the swimmer uses when she swtiches to whole stroke at the end of the clip. I'm not sure how old the clip is, possibly this is before the current just enough focus, but it just appears to me that she's over rotating.
The swimmer isn't really "rotating" at all during whole stroke (she was rotating a lot more doing her switch drills). The torso looks like it's "turning", but the hips are staying relatively flat. That's what I refer to as "residual" rotation - the only reason there's any turn of the torso is because the arms are reaching forward. For us, rotation/weight shifts are purposeful, pushing the arms forward to lengthen/spear. Her "cause & effect" are backwards which happens when someone's old swimming takes over their new drilling.

This swimmer hasn't made the connection between her new drilling & swimming. It's pretty typical. You can tell that she's not ready to "swim" (much) yet - she's tense & angular, her kick is over-active, her recovery is abrupt & hand focused (rather than relaxed & elbow focused) and her lead hand is VERY impatient all the time, especially on breathing strokes.
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  #4  
Old 03-06-2011
westyswoods westyswoods is offline
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westyswoods
Default Rotation or not

I reviewed the video of the swimmer with many starts and stops while doing so.

I disagree with Coach Kevin when he says there is no rotation. I do definitely see Coaches points about there being no integrated and or coordination of that rotation and that it is hand and arm driven.

The hips rotate not nearly as much as the torso but look to be more of a passive and uncoordinated result of the upper body and kicking while attempting to maintain balance.

Very good explanation Coach.

Swim Silent and Be Well
Westy
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  #5  
Old 03-06-2011
cynthcor cynthcor is offline
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cynthcor
Default thanks

I can see both of your points. It is quite hard to see her hips rotate but a twist of the torso is there. This seems to me to be a combination of the black suit impairing the clarity and the kicking action that seems to be keeping her from getting a full rotation of the hips. The upper torso does seem disjointed from the lower torso. Definitely something to think about when I'm drilling.

For as many times as I have watched the video's of Shinji, Terry and others, it really just hit me in my research last night that there is considerable more body rotation than what I think I'm getting. Time to bring the camera out again.

Thanks for the reply.
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  #6  
Old 03-06-2011
aquarius aquarius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachKevin View Post
For us, rotation/weight shifts are purposeful, pushing the arms forward to lengthen/spear. Her "cause & effect" are backwards which happens when someone's old swimming takes over their new drilling.
How does rotation push the arm forward? I can understand how the weight of the arm, when it's pushed forward, can cause rotation, but not the reverse.

So I fail to see what's really backwards here.

The notion of "purposeful rotation" would require defining what the purpose of rotation is. I always thought it was to allow for a more efficient and less strainful arm stroke.

A lot of swimming issues seem to be of the chicken and egg type...
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Old 03-06-2011
Janos Janos is offline
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I really fail to see what relevance the clip has to TI swimming. Is the swimmers style an aspirational one for anybody?
The swimmer is trying to push backwards to propel forwards. Which is diametrically opposed to the TI philosophy of pushing forward via hip rotation around the fulcrum point of a firm and patient catch.
Rotational power in TI style comes from the hips, the shoulders articulate the recovery and catch and place the arms in their most advantageous position i.e front quadrant position, and the hips drive the stroke.
You can easily replicate the action on dryland by standing in your socks on a polished floor, in front of a mirror. Mimic your stroke and as you push your arm up in its spearing action, push it the final foot or so with your hips twisting and supporting the spear. Your legs will be pushed to one side, and then the other as you repeat. You will be able to monitor how much your hips rotate for each stroke...and it will be less than you think.

Last edited by Janos : 03-06-2011 at 03:43 PM.
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  #8  
Old 03-06-2011
CoachKevin CoachKevin is offline
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Originally Posted by westyswoods View Post
I disagree with Coach Kevin when he says there is no rotation. I do definitely see Coaches points about there being no integrated and or coordination of that rotation and that it is hand and arm driven.
Westy, I didn't say there is no rotation, but that it is residual, which is why I put rotating in quotation marks. And it's only rotation as defined in the dictionary, not as TI defines it. We define rotation as rolling the body (shifting weight) from side-to-side like rolling a log - everything rolls as a unit with no twist at the waist. So purposeful rotation, done with thought & desire to roll the body from side-to-side is what we're after.
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  #9  
Old 03-06-2011
CoachKevin CoachKevin is offline
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Originally Posted by aquarius View Post
How does rotation push the arm forward? I can understand how the weight of the arm, when it's pushed forward, can cause rotation, but not the reverse.
The arm going forward can aid rotation, which is different than causing rotation. Actually, in a well executed freestyle stroke, the kick causes rotation.

I often do a rotation demonstration when I teach, to prove the point that rotation, on it's own, won't propel you at all. In CoreBalance I simply rotate back & forth, kind of like a horizontal washing machine agitator. I can do 10 rotations/weight shifts without kicking or lengthening & unless I've got a tailwind I stay in place. As soon as I add a correctly timed kick I move forward a little. If I do it with just a spear I move forward better. When I kick & add one spear I can glide for quite a ways.
We used to refer to this as the kinetic chain - kick, rotate, lengthen. A swimmer can do all of them well, but if they're not timed correctly, the outcome can be very disappointing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius View Post
The notion of "purposeful rotation" would require defining what the purpose of rotation is. I always thought it was to allow for a more efficient and less strainful arm stroke.
The reason for purposeful rotation is to unleash stored (potential) energy in the body. As the body rotates from side to side that stored energy goes to work. When that rotating body connects to the lengthening/spearing arm the energy is directed forward. It's enhanced by beginning it all with a correctly timed kick.

What separates really efficient swimmers from the rest is HOW they make that connection & at what time in the stroke. The time to connect is around the time the recovering hand is going in the water. At that moment the kick starts, a moment later the rotation/weight shift starts, then as the hand enters the water, the purposeful, energetic weight shift connects to the arm & pushes it forward to complete the spear. And, you're right, aquarius, that's when the onus/strain is taken off the "pulling" arm. It is very obvious that the swimmer we watched is doing that backward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius View Post
A lot of swimming issues seem to be of the chicken and egg type...
They're not when you think about it. All of your "stuff" is connected when you swim. There's always going to be something you do (cause) that will lead you to the next thing to do (effect).
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  #10  
Old 03-06-2011
aquarius aquarius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachKevin View Post
At that moment the kick starts, a moment later the rotation/weight shift starts, then as the hand enters the water, the purposeful, energetic weight shift connects to the arm & pushes it forward to complete the spear.
Thank you for the detailed reply. I see how the weight shift connects to the spearing, and realize the timing is paramount, but still don't grasp how the weight shift can possibly push the arm forward, as you say. If I don't do anything, it will simply push my arm down, but not forward.
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