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  #41  
Old 09-03-2017
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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I always thought that a deep spear could work well only at slowish rates but during the above set I noticed that I still felt fine at 70SPM. So, at the end of the set, I wanted to try a few 25m sprints with deeper spear and with my pleasure I could stroke faster (no TT but I'm pretty sure it was above 80SPM) without any problem: I threw the arm deep and forward as if I had to grab a fish and it didn't feel like fighting the water at all. More tests tomorrow on this.
For the record, today I did more tests and it seems a deep spear does not hurt high stroke rates at all. After a steady 30x50m at 70SPM/20SPL on a shorter interval than last time (15s rest vs 20), I tried some descending 25m sprints at higher rates, from 80 to 92SPM. Not only the deep spear didn't feel like fighting the water at these rates, but the grip felt pretty solid too (as with a straight arm pull) so that I was also able to hit 15s flat at 92SPM - I normally have to stroke faster than that to hit 15s.
A few months ago I had similar feedbacks from the straight arm pull stroke (Manaudou style), but that stroke is way less sustainable than this deep spear stroke. So very interesting results so far, that's the best way to start a new season!

Happy swimming everyone,
Salvo
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  #42  
Old 09-03-2017
Streak Streak is offline
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Thanks for the analysis Salvo. Something to try this week,
How do you get your arms to rotate at 80 to 92 spm!!!
I have tried approaching 60spm using the TT (1.0) and it does not feel good at all. Any faster, and whatever TI style I have left will go right out the window!
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  #43  
Old 09-04-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Sclim,

thank you very much! You pointed out in much better terms exactly what I'd tried to say.

Best regards,
Werner
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  #44  
Old 09-04-2017
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Originally Posted by Streak View Post
Thanks for the analysis Salvo. Something to try this week,
How do you get your arms to rotate at 80 to 92 spm!!!
I have tried approaching 60spm using the TT (1.0) and it does not feel good at all. Any faster, and whatever TI style I have left will go right out the window!
Hi Streak,
80 to 92SPM is for sprinting (say up to 100m), at cruising pace I usually swim below 70SPM. Anyway I can assure you that at 92SPM there's still time to stretch forward and deep (can see the arms with peripheral view), catch and pull all the way back till the hand reaches the thighs (ie no shortcuts). Of course I also need to pull strongly to execute the full stroke at these rates. To have fun with TT, I could still follow the beep at higher rates (above 100SPM) but then, given my current level of strength (which is improvable), I'd need to progressively cut the stroke at the front and/or at the rear and in the end I wouldn't be faster than I am at 92SPM.

Note that these rates are not considered high outside TI world. Fast swimmers still look not rushed at all at 80+ (think of K.Ledecky on the 1500 for instance).
60SPM should be quite comfortable for most swimmers. If you feel rushed at 60SPM you may try practicing some short fast swimming to strip your stroke from unnecessary movements and gain the benefits of rhythm. Believe it or not, 6 years ago I felt rushed at 40SPM!!!

Salvo
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  #45  
Old 09-04-2017
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Coach Stuart:

I think I understand what Werner is getting at. In his description of "radial forces", "radial attack" refers to the vector (i.e. the reference direction, to use non-geometrical terminology) of the perceived pressure, i.e. focussing only on the sensation water pressure directed perpendicular to the skin surface of the arm, but also perpendicular to the central axis of the straightened arm as it makes it spear. These perpendicular radial forces may be felt (as a sensation on the skin) on top if the spear is too deep, on the bottom if the spear is too shallow, on the inside of the forearm if the spear is too wide and on the outside (lateral surface of the forearm) if the spear is too narrow.
Sclim,

I think it's very important as experienced swimmers to use language that is direct and accurate, not overly complex. It may sound cool, but for the most part misunderstood or misinterpreted - confusing. Perpendicular and radial, one's linear while the other is circular. Also a "perpendicular to axis" cue may sound precise but is subjective given a swimmer's perception in that environment. Using feeling of pressure on the high and low side of spearing arm is direct and in context, i.e. do you feel higher pressure on knuckle side of hand or on the palm side. Although pressures are subtle, a swimmer tuning into those areas will begin to gain that awareness.

Then of course, frequent video/filming of swimmer above and below surface immediately bring both perception and reality together for both swimmer and coach with few words.

Stu
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  #46  
Old 09-04-2017
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Sclim,

I think it's very important as experienced swimmers to use language that is direct and accurate, not overly complex. It may sound cool, but for the most part misunderstood or misinterpreted - confusing. Perpendicular and radial, one's linear while the other is circular. Also a "perpendicular to axis" cue may sound precise but is subjective given a swimmer's perception in that environment. Using feeling of pressure on the high and low side of spearing arm is direct and in context, i.e. do you feel higher pressure on knuckle side of hand or on the palm side. Although pressures are subtle, a swimmer tuning into those areas will begin to gain that awareness.

Then of course, frequent video/filming of swimmer above and below surface immediately bring both perception and reality together for both swimmer and coach with few words.

Stu
Sorry there: didn't intend to sound cool or anything, just trying to re-interpret Werner's description in a non-ambiguous way. Glad we're all together at the end.
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  #47  
Old 09-06-2017
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Another personal feedback on the deep spear at high rates (> 80SPM) fwiw: when spearing deep, I also find it crucial to never cut the stroke short at the rear. There's quite a lot of DPS to be gained or lost in those last inches between the hips and the thighs. So if you have to save time, do it somewhere else but not there.
Comparing to a shallow spear + high elbow catch, a deeper spear may miss some water purchase at front so it is important not to miss other precious water at the rear.

Salvo
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  #48  
Old 09-07-2017
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nice very nice nice nice nice
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  #49  
Old 09-07-2017
Streak Streak is offline
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Thanks Salvo.
I reduced TT from 1.20 in .05 steps down to .95 yesterday, doing 100 yards per step.
.95 felt quite exhausting but was able to maintain my composure!
For kicks I then set .75 (80 spm) and while I did complete a 100 at this pace my SPL shot up to over 25. As you said in your above post, I felt I was cutting the stroke short at the rear to make sure I was ready for the next beep.
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  #50  
Old 09-08-2017
gary p gary p is offline
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Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Sorry to hear about the injury. 8 weeks is a lot, didn't even think a flip turn could be so "dangerous". Good luck for the new season!

Salvo
Clipped my heel on the gutter, split it open, took a long time to heal.
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