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  #21  
Old 12-17-2015
dougalt dougalt is offline
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sclim: As for Dikla's "unheralded strong points" (I LIKE that term!), I think one of them is that, as best as I can determine from these videos, Dikla is using 18 strokes per length, while the more powerful-appearing Liza is using 20... CAVEAT: 2 different pools, no concrete (pun intended) information as to length of each, and Liza's video does not have a complete length recorded continuously in the video (so, I'm interpolating that 2 strokes occurred between 0:22 and 0:23 when a gap occurs in that section of her video recording).

I think Dikla's stroke is seen in its best light when she is near the camera each time - she has used a few strokes from the wall to get set up in her best frame of mind, then she gets into optimum execution while in front of the camera, then proceeds to relax a bit after leaving the "camera zone" as she finishes at the far wall.

During these near-camera moments she just "cruises" through the water. I can imagine that she is thinking of the "climbing over the water" analogy. She's not using impulse energy to blast her way through the water; the arms, legs and torso all smoothly contribute to "wiggling/climbing" their way through the resistance of the H2O. (Reminds me of the low-crawl we had to do during Army training, as machine gun bullets flew only a few feet overhead...)
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  #22  
Old 12-17-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Dougalt,
I have read the books, watched the videos (Ti being only one of many) , tried most out myself and have come to certain conclusions.
Its a status que, always open to new inputs, and not linked to any swim system, so maybe I am saying different things next year.
Dont think it will change drastically though. The swimming puzzle is more or less solved. Not so much questions left anymore.
Time is better spent in the pool.


Its about fundamentals and details.
When people spend a lot of time in the water they eventually start to move through the water in a certain way.
In my view, thats when they have ingrained the fundamentals.

An example.
Imagine we have an identical twin.
They are doing a canoe race.
One of them is sitting in a an inflatable canoe, thats only half inflated. This persone has developed a beautifull splash free paddle entry.
The other one is sitting in normal solid canoe, but has a bit of a rough, splashy paddle entry.
Which person would you put your money on?
Possibly you would choose the first, I would choose the latter.
The entry is a detail, having a solid streamlined vessel is a fundamental.

OK, suppose Dika has her core sorted out, and arms and legs can transfer forces better into a better toned main vessel.
Whats left to dislike in her stroke?
Liza lifts her head too much perhaps, but looking underwater, how much does this really harms the underwatershape that moves through the water?
Her hips will sink a bit more by this action, but on the whole, very little changes when she takes a breath. Roll angle stays under control, her lead arm stays in a streamlined forward postion and after extension on the non breathing side that streamlined arm shape transforms to an efficient propulsive arm shape.
Dika keeps her head lower when she breathes, but the breathing action has a negative effect on her streamline and rhythm.
She rotates too much on normal strokes, and that gets even worse when she takes a breathe. Her leading arm goes almost straight down in a straight line (30 sec, 48 sec), which causes drag and the overrotating causes lack of balance indicated by the biggest kneebend at that part of the stroke. Which is pretty subdued on the whole, but at 30 sec you can see the leg sticking out from the streamline.
Off course the deep spearing action is not ideal for streamline. This is an emergency measure for people with little shoulder flexibility and/or sinking legs.
She has neither, so this action draws the front down too much with the hips relatively high. Instead of a high head and a low hips she has turned this around to the other side of a straight line.
An other negative effect of this kind of deep spear is that it limits the possibilities of making long smooth propulsives strokes.
Instead she is pulling with a dropped elbow over a short effective path.
Lastly there is the lack of rhythm.
She is focussed too much on the arm spearing action instead of a fluid wholebody continuum, making the stroke look robotic and hurried, even at a low strokerate.
She has a sleeker and probably more buoyant body to work with than Lisa but moves throught the water giving the impression of a lot of arm and leg movement, bending through a noodlelike midsection without using a purposefull aquatic posture and optimal energy transfer between limbs.
This may all sound rather negative. It doesnt look all that bad, but you asked what I didnt like, and here you have it.

Quote:
She's not using impulse energy to blast her way through the water; the arms, legs and torso all smoothly contribute to "wiggling/climbing" their way through the resistance of the H2O. (Reminds me of the low-crawl we had to do during Army training, as machine gun bullets flew only a few feet overhead...)
Here you say in your own words what impression she makes, and its indeed a fundamental where this thread is about.
When doing the low-crawl your main body is supported against gravity by using arms and legs.
This is exactly the opposite of the main swimming foundation, which is having the main body supported by the water and freeing up the legs and arms so they can be used for propulsionpurposes instead of support. Not making more limb movement as necessary.
Its more complicated than that, and I have used a turtles land based movement as an anology for combining kick and diagonal fast catch, but thats not what Dika is doing here and not so much Ti swim style.
Thats also more about propulsion than streamline and balance.

For a body rotating freely through the water supported by it and moving properly through the water, again one of my favorites:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb1Supmb2TQ

In my search to examples for swim fundamentals came across this one. If you like streamlined long smooth strokes, this is a joy to watch....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjrCss_5JXQ
He probably goes into a lope at higher effort level so his breathing is bit crooked, but thats a relative detail.;-)

he is doing some Ti drills also
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUS5v4svSt8

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-17-2015 at 08:05 PM.
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  #23  
Old 12-17-2015
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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I like his term 'press for the breath' - it matches what I felt the other day when I referred to my face printing thought.
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  #24  
Old 12-18-2015
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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What these two coaches represent is they both used the same process. Coach Liza (I suspect) an early competitive swim background, adapting to a sport since childhood. Coach Dilka, non competitive swimmer, learning to swim very well later in life. You can easily see these early and late adaptations in any sport. Stability, balance and fluid movements will always be prominent with those that started in childhood, whereas those that start in adulthood will not be as fluid in movement. But those that did grow into a sport early in life, many errors will creep back in and need frequent management (i.e., Liza's head lift when rolling to breathe). Those that start later in life, have a clean slate and don't have to manage nearly as many imprinted errors, but have to overcome more imprinted terrestrial human instincts. Shinji was brought up in this thread and he's a great example of those starting a sport later in life, clean slate vs those that haven't. It's amazing how far a swimmer can improve with focus, discipline - and most important, education and awareness.

Like Shinji, it's safe to say that both Coach Liza and Coach Dilka were much different swimmers two years before these videos -as well as- two years (and more) after these videos were taken. The original poster assumes the videos of both coaches are some kind of endpoint or final frames, presenting a choice of whether one should swim like Liza or Dilka - or Shinji. Here's a Shinji before and after TI training: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FrSTJLN_CY . A 180 change from crawling through and shredding water to streamline gliding that took several years to master that level.

What Coaches Liza, Dilka, and Shinji demonstrate is the very same TI methods and movements - the process worked for each of them. They continue to improve in each pool session with a process that is scalable regardless of swim level, experience and background.

This video posted in previous thread, long strokes, clean edge and body line, fluid recovery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUS5v4svSt8. His tempo 1.38 secs/stroke (44 strokes per minute), very slow tempo; 11-12 stokes per length, 100 pace appx 1:17 and that's with a slow turn. He makes it look effortless, like a warm up, but he swims faster than most swimmers/triathletes swimming at 70+ strokes per minute. One might say he has a TI stroke - too much glide. Harold's stroke is very balanced, streamlined, movement economy - a core/hip driven stroke. This swimmer is an excellent example of reducing effort, slower turnover (tempo), increased distance per stroke are the best options to swim faster and for longer distances.

Stuart
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  #25  
Old 12-18-2015
truwani truwani is offline
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I really like your last video Stuart

Very very fluid stroke, super balance, only 11-12 strokes necessary per line

This gives good inspiration: I will look at it in detail to try to learn from.
Beautifull indeed!! Thanks for sharing
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  #26  
Old 12-18-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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One thing we almost never see on this forum (to my regret!) is coaches critiquing their own swimming style. I understand that, for a beginner, the coach is supposed to represent the perfection one aspires to, but the coaches presumably know at least as much about their problems as the rest of us do about ours. Most of us on this forum are engaged in self-coaching, and some examples of how to do this from real coaches would (for me at least) be very educational. It might also teach us better how to form realistic goals.
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  #27  
Old 12-18-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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500 yards in around 4 min 45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds3fPqf98es

1650 yards in around 16 min 20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n811o6EGUeg

1.17min/100yards pace is easy for this guy.

He goes in a pretty heavy lope when the going gets tough.

Could lift my own swimming warmup to a higher level for about 5 minutes thinking about his warmup style.
Thats what a good example does.
Even better to have great swimmers in your lane.
Instant përsonal improvement guaranteed when this happens on those rare occasions.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-19-2015 at 04:53 PM.
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  #28  
Old 12-20-2015
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
One thing we almost never see on this forum (to my regret!) is coaches critiquing their own swimming style. I understand that, for a beginner, the coach is supposed to represent the perfection one aspires to, but the coaches presumably know at least as much about their problems as the rest of us do about ours. Most of us on this forum are engaged in self-coaching, and some examples of how to do this from real coaches would (for me at least) be very educational. It might also teach us better how to form realistic goals.
Coaches are hardly perfect, if they thought they were they wouldn't belong in the TI community because part of our core value is "Kaizen"...continuos improvement.

I've posted my own videos often in the past and even in the TI coaches forum for others to comment on as well. Many of mine are also available on youtube. I have not seen a lot of other coaches do the same and I don't know why. It's certainly not hard to do , and we demonstrate for our students live all the time.

I think it's reaso able for anyone giving advice to be willing to make their own videos public for commentary as well.

feel free to search for "Steel City Endurance" on youtube for many of mine...most quite out of date, probably the ones from Kona in the endless pool with Karlyn Pipes being the most recent.
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  #29  
Old 12-20-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Coaches are hardly perfect, if they thought they were they wouldn't belong in the TI community because part of our core value is "Kaizen"...continuos improvement.

I've posted my own videos often in the past and even in the TI coaches forum for others to comment on as well. Many of mine are also available on youtube. I have not seen a lot of other coaches do the same and I don't know why. It's certainly not hard to do , and we demonstrate for our students live all the time.

I think it's reaso able for anyone giving advice to be willing to make their own videos public for commentary as well.

feel free to search for "Steel City Endurance" on youtube for many of mine...most quite out of date, probably the ones from Kona in the endless pool with Karlyn Pipes being the most recent.
Thanks Suzanne, that's an important first step. But now I would like to ask you to critique your own swimming in public on this forum, so the rest of us can learn a little about how to critique our own swimming. If you were interested in doing this, you could post a link to a video of your swimming, tell us what problems you see in that video and what you need to improve and make suggestions about how to attain the improvements you think you need. This is what a lot of us are doing.

That said, it is somewhat brazen of me to ask this of you, since I myself have never posted video of my own swimming, even though I have lots of it. Seems a little like doing a strip tease in public, and I'm too shy :o)
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