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  #21  
Old 06-21-2013
scr scr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post

3. As the right arm spear starts extending forward (and your body is beginning to rotate, probably getting flat at this point), your left arm bends at the elbow WHILE keeping the upper arm still extended forward. Thus the left forearm is dropping below the elbow to catch water with the entire forearm, not just hand.
Now I get the true picture which helps to set the timing right.

Thank you so much for your detailed explanations.

John

Last edited by scr : 06-21-2013 at 04:21 AM.
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  #22  
Old 06-21-2013
Rajan Rajan is offline
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Coach David Shen has now addressed my first post, which I had reworded later also. This is a kind of reply I was expecting from someone to answer. Great Coach.

Relief for me, I was not confused. My query was right.

Thanks & Regards.

Rajan

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
2. As the right arm begins its spear, it drops into the water. Your left arm is still extended - remember the patient lead arm!

3. As the right arm spear starts extending forward (and your body is beginning to rotate, probably getting flat at this point), your left arm bends at the elbow WHILE keeping the upper arm still extended forward. Thus the left forearm is dropping below the elbow to catch water with the entire forearm, not just hand.

Last edited by Rajan : 06-21-2013 at 07:51 AM.
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  #23  
Old 06-21-2013
Rajan Rajan is offline
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Please don't mind what I am writing. You have asked an important question but these type of questions may be posted in a separate thread enabling coaches to focus particular on that type of question. I have noticed sometimes that so many issues are discussed in one thread and the subject gets lost and also those issues, which could have been posted in a separate thread, may not be addressed in a proper way. This can benefit all of us who want to learn TI swimming. I think I have conveyed properly what I wish to say. If you think this question fall under this category then please ignore this message and may be taken care of for future purpose. In gist, solutions which are provided by experts in a particular thread may focus only on subject matter.

Regards

Rajan

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Originally Posted by swimust View Post
Its the one billion dollar question ;) hardly ever talked about...

Last edited by Rajan : 06-21-2013 at 07:38 AM.
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  #24  
Old 06-21-2013
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swimust View Post
Can you please tell us which one has top priority?
Who is leading who? The leg snap (body rotation) leads the stroking arm, or the stroking arm leads the body rotation?
Is it the STROKE giving the main propulsion or the BODY ROTATION giving the main propulsion? Or is it "half half"? (50% stroke and 50% body rotation). There are only 3 options.
At present, I first focus during a stroke cycle on my leg snap (body rotation) and only after that on my stroke.
The leg snap is my main focal point, not my stroking arm. Is that correct or wrong please?

Many thanks for your kind help
i'm going to give you an answer but probably not the one you're looking for.

the basic movement sequence I tried to describe in words in that previous post. but i think to break it down and analyze it intellectually is not a good path.

the solution is to note that this is a special, coordinated movement of various parts of the body in perfect sequence to generate the maximum amt of propulsive energy forward. to achieve that, i would take the basic text description and start swimming with it. then focus on adjusting the timing of each element and see if you are swimming faster or slower or no change, and also what feels comfortable and what does not.

all of these generate information to act upon. given each swimmer's personal characteristics and mental/physical gifts, they will each find their unique timing through practice which will maximize propulsive generation with the whole body.

i do not believe there is one formula which tells the absolute right way to do this for everyone. everyone is different. we have different preparation - were we athletes before or did we come into it later in life? we have different mental capability to adapt. we have different body proportions and limb lengths, as well as body composition. all of these elements mean that swimming has some elements which need to be tailored to the individual. only through diligent practice and playing with the various elements - in this case, first mastering the individual elements and then putting it all together with proper timing - will get you to your maximal generation of propulsion.

the thing all swimmers need to learn is how to be self analytical and know how to test various elements, and evalute their results. testing the timing of the various elements of this stroke and looking how you performed will get you to the proper technique that is right for you.
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  #25  
Old 06-21-2013
Janos Janos is offline
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At the moment, my thoughts are that there is a fundamental swim movement that is recurrent through freestyle, butterfly and breaststroke. The power is applied front to back, through the torso to the legs, with the arms facilitating that power. Once the basics are mastered I think swimming comes down to fine tuning the timing between arm extension and kick to get the most efficient and powerful stroke. With the onus on extending the body forwards as much as possible before applying the kick in all three strokes. In other words, a fishlike pulse. This theory means nothing if you start applying force via the shoulders first of course, but I think that is what separates the two schools of thought regarding propulsion.

Regards to all

Janos
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  #26  
Old 06-21-2013
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
i'm going to give you an answer but probably not the one you're looking for.

the basic movement sequence I tried to describe in words in that previous post. but i think to break it down and analyze it intellectually is not a good path.

the solution is to note that this is a special, coordinated movement of various parts of the body in perfect sequence to generate the maximum amt of propulsive energy forward. to achieve that, i would take the basic text description and start swimming with it. then focus on adjusting the timing of each element and see if you are swimming faster or slower or no change, and also what feels comfortable and what does not.

all of these generate information to act upon. given each swimmer's personal characteristics and mental/physical gifts, they will each find their unique timing through practice which will maximize propulsive generation with the whole body.

i do not believe there is one formula which tells the absolute right way to do this for everyone. everyone is different. we have different preparation - were we athletes before or did we come into it later in life? we have different mental capability to adapt. we have different body proportions and limb lengths, as well as body composition. all of these elements mean that swimming has some elements which need to be tailored to the individual. only through diligent practice and playing with the various elements - in this case, first mastering the individual elements and then putting it all together with proper timing - will get you to your maximal generation of propulsion.

the thing all swimmers need to learn is how to be self analytical and know how to test various elements, and evalute their results. testing the timing of the various elements of this stroke and looking how you performed will get you to the proper technique that is right for you.
I should also add that in this particular case, the variance is pretty small - didn't mean to imply that the variance in timing could be large amongst swimmers. But your coordination/timing may be ever so slightly different than someone elses based on your particular attributes.
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  #27  
Old 06-22-2013
swimust swimust is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
I should also add that in this particular case, the variance is pretty small - didn't mean to imply that the variance in timing could be large amongst swimmers. But your coordination/timing may be ever so slightly different than someone elses based on your particular attributes.
Thanks very much for your last two replies. :)
Your explanation goes exactly with what I understand for the last week!

Last week I started the leg snap much earlier than what I used to do. In past, I used to bend the knee when the wrist is in water, and then I was... waiting for the elbow to get in water and only then snap.
I changed it to: "snap straight after knee bend with no delay" and I found early hip roll and enough time to do the torso twist !!

Then I saw the Shinji comment about changing the timing and amplitude of the leg snap according to the body rotation that I need (the rotation angle). It all goes together and forms a working swim for me now.

My main error was fixing my brain on a wrong timing of the leg snap. I was always snapping when elbow is in water. That's too late for me, maybe because I have long arms and 180 cm in height.
If I am wrong then please correct me.

MANY THANKS for the help :)

P.S. - I am "playing with" and trying different timings of leg snap all the time to fit my needs. Just as you said to do.
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Last edited by swimust : 06-22-2013 at 07:02 AM.
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  #28  
Old 06-22-2013
swimust swimust is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos View Post
The power is applied front to back, through the torso to the legs, with the arms facilitating that power.
The line above caught my attention. Please read the quote below. Its a comment made by Shinji on his viral demo on youtube:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji
Hip rotation is coordinated with twisting torso and hand extension. And the hip rotation is triggered by snapping legs. So the power is conveyed from back to forward.
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Last edited by swimust : 06-22-2013 at 07:24 AM.
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  #29  
Old 06-22-2013
swimust swimust is offline
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@ Rajan,
Sorry if I hijacked your thread, but CoachDavidShen reply to your questions are connected with your questions, so I asked about his reply and I did not changed the subject. My questions are related to yours. Sorry about that. Just ignore my stuff :)
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  #30  
Old 06-22-2013
Janos Janos is offline
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My first assumption is that the quote from Shinji might be losing something in translation, but on second thoughts, I think swimming propulsion is such a multi faceted subject that there are a number of ways of looking at it, and of applying it. In my case I do that via the pool and ocean rather than youtube. TI is described as 'fishlike', and I have yet to see a fish transmit power forwards rather than backwards through its tail. Like I said in my post, my current view is that power is transmitted front to back for optimal performance.
I base this on thoughts gathered when training in butterfly and breaststroke. The first kick in fly is as we land our hands, which is essentially a pulse through to the legs, the same in breaststroke, we recover, send our hands forward, our torso drops, and via our hips we use this rocking motion to send power backwards. We practice this using dolphin kick practice which is a whole body exercise, and the hip rocking movement is essential. In freestyle, my thoughts are that the hip rocking motion used in the other two strokes is now used laterally, but performs the same function. The dropping of the shoulder and twisting of the torso is transmitting power to the hips which twist instead of rock and send power through the torso to create the whiplike kick which seems to create the most propulsion.

Janos
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