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  #11  
Old 11-23-2012
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Just came back from the pool and had been practicing breathing and thought I had made some headway--was taking in some water thru mouth so I figured I might be doing something right. Also didn't get tired so quickly and felt more relaxed

then I saw your post and something clicked--aha the head doesn't move (as long as balance is ok). can't wait to try this out tomorrorw a.m. would go again now but have company coming. Darn!!

Thanks for all your insights

Sherry
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  #12  
Old 11-23-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Here's the clip someone was referring to earlier, shows how the head moves along with the body as a single unit to inhale, and that it comes back by its own (when I get it right, that clip was total improvisation so I don't always do things right). It was done to help people mastering my NAD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cS114X6fCQ
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  #13  
Old 11-23-2012
scr scr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
How much have you rotated your head? The answer is zero...breathing requires NOT MOVING your head relative to your body as you rotate the entire spine as a unit.
Imagine the left arm leading at the front. The right arm is about to re-enter into the water. The body is at 45 degree to the right side. The head is inline with the spine and faces downward to the bottom of pool.

Lock the head position with the spine and rotate with the body. When the right arm is leading at the front, the face is parallel to the left side of pool. The water divides the face into two parts which one in the air and the other in the water. Wait for the left arm back to front and the head rotates with the body again.

The head rotates with the body as one unit. Done :)

John
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  #14  
Old 11-23-2012
aquarius aquarius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post

How much have you rotated your head? The answer is zero...breathing requires NOT MOVING your head relative to your body as you rotate the entire spine as a unit.
...
Breath by not moving the head while the entire body rotates as a unit.
This does indeed answer my question of timing: You start the head rotation (as seen by the viewer who would see only your head) as soon as you start the body rotation.

So if you rotate your body x°, your head ends up in theory with a 2x° angle. (Which is why I find it strange to read that the head doesn't rotate more than the body.)

And then I still have the impression that some swimmers add even a bit more, so that their head ends up with an angle that is more than twice that of the body. And this would seem necessary if the body rotation is less than 45°.

Thanks to all for the replies.
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  #15  
Old 11-23-2012
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius View Post
...
So if you rotate your body x°, your head ends up in theory with a 2x° angle. (Which is why I find it strange to read that the head doesn't rotate more than the body.)
...
Not quite, I think.

If you face the bottom of the pool, let's say, left shoulder down., with a body angle of 45 degrees, to make it simple. The angle between the left shoulder and the facing direction of the head is 45 degrees, obviously.

Now, when your right hand comes forward the right shoulder goes down to a 45 degree position. So the shoulders rotated 90 degrees from one shoulder down position to the other shoulder down position.
If you didn't alter the head's position in relation to the body you still have an angle of 45 degrees between the head's direction and left shoulder. Since the shoulder is 45 degrees out of the water the head is facing 90 degrees to the side, parallel to the water surface - that's where you breathe. No rotation of the head in relation to the body.

In reality we probably rotate with our body more than 45 degrees to each side, so the axis through the shoulders does rotate more than 90 degrees, maybe even 120 degrees. In a breathing cycle the head moves from a facing straight down position to a 90 degrees position to the side = 90 degrees only, so in fact the body rotates to a higher degree than the head. So there is no need to rotate the head more than the body, on the contrary.

To make the picture complete, in a non breathing cycle with a body rotation of 120 degrees the head is kept facing straight down to the bottom of the pool. So we rotate our body until we have an angle of 30 degrees only between head and shoulder on one side, than on the other. Seen as if the body was still and the head rotates it does a a rotation of 120 degrees compared to the body, that is as if we look to the right, rotate and look to the left, and back. So on non breathing cycle the heads rotation in relation to the body equals the overall body rotation, on breathing cycles the head always rotates 90 degrees independent of what angle the body rotates in the same time - which most probably is more than 90 degrees.
So head rotation is less than body rotation while breathing.

Hope confusion is complete... we need a simple picture...
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  #16  
Old 11-23-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
If you didn't alter the head's position in relation to the body you still have an angle of 45 degrees between the head's direction and left shoulder. Since the shoulder is 45 degrees out of the water the head is facing 90 degrees to the side, parallel to the water surface
I think I lost you here...
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  #17  
Old 11-23-2012
aquarius aquarius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
Not quite, I think.

If you face the bottom of the pool, let's say, left shoulder down., with a body angle of 45 degrees, to make it simple. The angle between the left shoulder and the facing direction of the head is 45 degrees, obviously.

Now, when your right hand comes forward the right shoulder goes down to a 45 degree position. So the shoulders rotated 90 degrees from one shoulder down position to the other shoulder down position.
If you didn't alter the head's position in relation to the body you still have an angle of 45 degrees between the head's direction and left shoulder. Since the shoulder is 45 degrees out of the water the head is facing 90 degrees to the side, parallel to the water surface - that's where you breathe. No rotation of the head in relation to the body.

In reality we probably rotate with our body more than 45 degrees to each side, so the axis through the shoulders does rotate more than 90 degrees, maybe even 120 degrees. In a breathing cycle the head moves from a facing straight down position to a 90 degrees position to the side = 90 degrees only, so in fact the body rotates to a higher degree than the head. So there is no need to rotate the head more than the body, on the contrary.

To make the picture complete, in a non breathing cycle with a body rotation of 120 degrees the head is kept facing straight down to the bottom of the pool. So we rotate our body until we have an angle of 30 degrees only between head and shoulder on one side, than on the other. Seen as if the body was still and the head rotates it does a a rotation of 120 degrees compared to the body, that is as if we look to the right, rotate and look to the left, and back. So on non breathing cycle the heads rotation in relation to the body equals the overall body rotation, on breathing cycles the head always rotates 90 degrees independent of what angle the body rotates in the same time - which most probably is more than 90 degrees.
So head rotation is less than body rotation while breathing.

Hope confusion is complete... we need a simple picture...
A picture won't answer the question of timing. You'd need several!

The first part with a 45° angle of rotation makes perfect sense.

But, if you rotate more than 45°, say 60° on each side, as in your second example, and end up with the head at 90°, then the question of timing remains: do you start the absolute (as seen by the viewer) head rotation at the beginning of the body rotation, and stop after 90° of the 120 of the body°? Or place it at the end of the body rotation? Or in the middle?
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  #18  
Old 11-23-2012
borate borate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius View Post
...do you start the absolute (as seen by the viewer) head rotation at the beginning of the body rotation, and stop after 90° of the 120 of the body°? Or place it at the end of the body rotation? Or in the middle?
The lovely Keri-Ann demonstrates a relaxed breathing pattern. Click here.

Note that she does not over-rotate. "Just enough" - with a high elbow leading a smoothly coordinated movement.
The head tracks that rotation with the mouth beginning to surface just as recovery begins. It may turn slightly more than the body, but one goggle should remain submerged.
A slight cant of the chin towards the torso isn't uncommon, as is a "Popeye" mouth (lips pursed to the side) to minimize water intake.

Last edited by borate : 11-23-2012 at 05:47 PM.
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  #19  
Old 11-23-2012
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Borate this is a good video breathing demo from Keri, especially the front view, head-spine alignment, chin follows shoulder with body rotation, no additional rotation or added complexity on breathing stroke. Here is another video from goSwim, Shoulder Breath, demonstrating late breath (head rolling late and independently of torso), and early breath, head rolls with body, chin follows shoulder to get the breath, one goggle below and one goggle above surface; goSwim calls it "cheek to shoulder". And as Coach Suzanne noted earlier, no additional rotation of head or body (or added complexity) is required to breathe. If you are, something is wrong, head-spine not aligned (forehead much higher than chin), hips dropping, etc.
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  #20  
Old 11-23-2012
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius View Post
A picture won't answer the question of timing. You'd need several!

The first part with a 45° angle of rotation makes perfect sense.

But, if you rotate more than 45°, say 60° on each side, as in your second example, and end up with the head at 90°, then the question of timing remains: do you start the absolute (as seen by the viewer) head rotation at the beginning of the body rotation, and stop after 90° of the 120 of the body°? Or place it at the end of the body rotation? Or in the middle?
OK, my (amateur) opinion is this: you rotate the head with the body and when the head is at a 90 degree position you just leave the head there and keep rotating with the body. If you look at that above mentioned video of Keri-Ann (she is lovely indeed) then you can see that this is what she is doing. In fact it appears as if she turns her head a little faster than the body and then pauses it for a relative long time in that breathing position while the body keeps rotating to it's final target.

My personal take is: Breathe as early as possible. Because later your recovering arm comes and passes your head and that causes your head to sink slightly and that makes your breathing harder. Also when you are early you still got some time when to react to circumstances like getting water instead of air.

Sorry Charles, I knew words start to confuse at some point. What I mean is this: If you draw a line through the head from the back to where the nose is pointing and another line through the shoulders then you might find an angle of 45 degrees between the two, and in the rotation end position the shoulder line has an angle of 45 degrees to the water surface (assuming a 45 degree rotation only) which means when the heads angle in reference to the shoulders didn't change the head is now facing directly 90 degrees to the side.

I'll add some stills of this lovely lady :

Here you see the position right after full rotation and when she starts to rotate to the other side. You can clearly see that her head in relation to the body is rotated towards the left shoulder giving her an angle between the line through the head and the line through the shoulder of less than 45 degrees:



Here she is in the rotation but the head didn't reach the surface yet, angle between head and shoulders is roughly the same as before:



Now her head reached the surface of the water and does not rotate any further in the following frames, in fact it looks as if she was a little faster with the head and looks more to the side (towards her shoulder) than before:



And here at the end of the rotation the head is in the same position as before but the body rotated further:



Hope that helps.

Last edited by haschu33 : 11-23-2012 at 09:50 PM.
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