Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 02-10-2011
cynthcor cynthcor is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 26
cynthcor
Default To utilize the gravity more....

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachShinjiT View Post
Nice observation!

The answer is yes. To stabilize the head, the target gets shallower just before I breathe. To utilize the gravity more, the targets gets deeper just after I breathe.
CoachShinji will you please elaborate on the second part of your comment regarding the use of gravity.

Thanks

Cyndi
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-10-2011
terry terry is offline
Head Coach
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,305
terry has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
mjm, I think you are referring to the holy grail of high-elbow catch. My understanding is that Terry doubts this is worth the effort it takes to achieve.
It's not that I doubt the efficacy of that technique. If I could I most emphatically would.

Rather, my observation - of 10s of 1000s of swimmers, and my direct coaching experience with 1000s - is that the percentage of humans who can achieve the grail of EVF (early vertical forearm) is approximately equal to the percent who can dunk a basketball, or say, high jump 2 meters.
__________________
Terry Laughlin
Head Coach & Chief Executive Optimist

May your laps be as happy as mine.

My TI Story
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-10-2011
terry terry is offline
Head Coach
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,305
terry has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cynthcor View Post
CoachShinji will you please elaborate on the second part of your comment regarding the use of gravity. i
I believe what Shinji referred to is that during a breath we rotate a bit farther. Thus the return after the breath will be a bit more gravity-aided. I actually do aim to spear a bit farther forward and with slightly more energy after a breath.
__________________
Terry Laughlin
Head Coach & Chief Executive Optimist

May your laps be as happy as mine.

My TI Story
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-10-2011
terry terry is offline
Head Coach
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,305
terry has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachKris View Post
Nice synchro ;) were you using tt while shooting?
We weren't aided by TT. We were synching visually . . . and with Sixth Sense ;-).
__________________
Terry Laughlin
Head Coach & Chief Executive Optimist

May your laps be as happy as mine.

My TI Story
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-11-2011
CoachKris's Avatar
CoachKris CoachKris is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 69
CoachKris
Default

Well done then looks like you both match perfectly on pace

On evf: I believe its worth giving it a try however I'm 26 so I can still work on my flexibility (not as great as 12y but it can be done to certain extend;) ) It feels great when you get it right, gives you a great grip on the water and you can see how bottom runs away during sudden acceleration (almost like jumping into light speed in star wars ;-P ) but there is a long road for imprinting it as immediately after loosing my focus on it its simply gone ;(

Best

Kris
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-12-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,453
CoachSuzanne
Default

I don't think EVF is an either/or proposition. There is no disagreement that having a propulsive surface facing behind you will help you move forward... and the greater that surface, the more propulsion you will create.

But one has to take into account not just flexibility of the shoulders and the presence/absense of rotator cuff trouble or impingement. You also have to look at how the arm/shoulder/elbow/wrist hand are arriving at that moment in the stroke.

I teaching the skating drill, Terry demonstrates in his DVDs that one must experiment to find the best "X,Y" position for your balance. Later, he teaches the recovery and mail slot entry to arrive at that X,Y position.

If a swimmer attempts a "textbook" EVF without first developing the fundamentals of balance and streamlining, it's likely that you will trade propulsion for balance/streamlining...which is never a winnign proposition. Achieving good balance has a far lower energy cost.

However, once you have learned (or relearned) balance, streamlining, recovery, splashfree entry, etc...I think it's reasonable adn desirable to continue the circle of learning from the start...and re-explore your personal limits for your "X,Y" coordinates of your spearing arm.

And then continue experimenting with your catch and continue improving in all aspects.

it's hardly either or...it's a continuum of angles form multiple joints...that cannot be taken out of context of the full stroke.

I can't tell you how many people who are trying to "reach over the barrel" and create lots of propulsion by pushing hard on the water...who are sabataging their slippery vessel and balance. and in many cases overcompensating and ironically losing the EVF they are trying so hard to create.

Here is a great example with annotation of a good looking swimmer pulling TOO hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBqIl117xxY
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-12-2011
terry terry is offline
Head Coach
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,305
terry has disabled reputation
Default

Suzanne's description of the goal of EVF as a continuum is very helpful. At one end you have an unbalanced and uncomfortable novice who has a CHF - Continually Horizontal Forearm. At the other end world class freestylers who have the balance, extraordinary range of motion and rotator cuff strength to put the forearm in an almost perfectly vertical position very early and apply fairly strong leverage immediately.

As with any advanced swimming skill, EVF is highly complex, with many factors influencing it, balance and lateral stability being primary among them. Without those two foundational skills, EVF is simply a non-starter.

I had a really illuminating experience yesterday at a TI-Japan advanced workshop in Machida, near Tokyo. 14 of 15 swimmers displayed a stunningly high degree of symmetry, grace and sheer TI Mastery on the surface.

But when we watched their initial underwater video during the lunch break, only two of 15 showed even a rudimentary slight 'over the barrel' curve of the arm into what I call the "soft hook" position. This is entirely typical of other teaching experiences I've had.

In watching underwater video 1000s of adult swimmers over 20+ years, the number who have displayed an arm position that showed any promise of one day approaching a true EVF, like that common among elite swimmers, has been in the single digits.

Even so, it is still entirely worthwhile for all TI swimmers who have developed relatively strong balance and streamline skills to pursue a Somewhat Earlier, Somewhat More, Vertical Foream - SLSMVF, as I have, and do.
__________________
Terry Laughlin
Head Coach & Chief Executive Optimist

May your laps be as happy as mine.

My TI Story
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-12-2011
Janos Janos is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Liverpool, England
Posts: 389
Janos
Default

makes me think of Ian Thorpe commenting on his slow stroke rate, when he said..'it doesn't matter what you do on top of the water, or how fast you do it...that doesn't make you move forward. Its what you do underneath that counts'
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-12-2011
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,380
Richardsk
Default

Hello all

In Suzanne's clip of the nice-looking swimmer pulling too hard, is it also a problem that she is starting to apply force too soon rather than waiting for the hand and forearm to be facing backward?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-14-2011
CoachShinjiT CoachShinjiT is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 27
CoachShinjiT
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
drmike, I noticed the same thing while watching Shinji's videos. I assumed the out-turned hand aided balance.
And shifting my lateral balance to create propulsion. Since my hand stroke is a lot weaker than Terry's, I rely on my lateral balance shift to create propulsion more.

You can try the followings; You can push more if your hand is closer to the center line of your body, and you can rotate easier if you hand is wider than your shoulder line.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.